The Historic Racers Cycling Thread

[Peter Mallett]

Yes I know but having spent a fortune on this type I'm persevering. Just back from 20k and managed to pop the cleats with minimal problem so getting used to them I guess.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes I know but having spent a fortune on this type I'm persevering. Just back from 20k and managed to pop the cleats with minimal problem so getting used to them I guess.

Peter, rest assured, I falled a number of times as well and it took practice. Maybe you should look at the color of the cleats, red, blue or yellow as this controls the amount of "float" on the pedal and can ease the uncleat in a way.

[Duddha]

I thought I posted a picture of the bike, I did talk about it earlier but here it is, my Lotus Type 110. All Appendix K and period specification compliant, this could get a HTP tomorrow. Although we are updating the chainring to a 56 and getting a set of wheels to match the period correctness but made for useability, riding 26yo carbon is very dangerous and far from safe I think.

[morninggents]

I just hope all those modifications are included on the period homologation papers.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Duddha

I thought I posted a picture of the bike, I did talk about it earlier but here it is, my Lotus Type 110. All Appendix K and period specification compliant, this could get a HTP tomorrow. Although we are updating the chainring to a 56 and getting a set of wheels to match the period correctness but made for useability, riding 26yo carbon is very dangerous and far from safe I think.

But racing in 26 yo carbon is deemed to be ok by some? Discuss!

[delta]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So, new shoes, pedals and cleats ordered. First run this morning and even though I stopped whilst trying to get used to the gear operation still averaged 2km/h faster than on the MTB. Got to also get used to holding my head up because the lay down position is different to the MTB. Steering is a bit different too, currently taking wider turns than previous.

Well done Peter.Bike looks fantastic.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Duddha

I thought I posted a picture of the bike, I did talk about it earlier but here it is, my Lotus Type 110. All Appendix K and period specification compliant, this could get a HTP tomorrow. Although we are updating the chainring to a 56 and getting a set of wheels to match the period correctness but made for useability, riding 26yo carbon is very dangerous and far from safe I think.

Jeepers Louis. You got to let ma have a go. !!!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by andy97

But racing in 26 yo carbon is deemed to be ok by some? Discuss!

Different stuff.

Carbon fibre in cycling was not used with the knowledge that was available in Formula One say back then and even there, a lot of the components were manufactured through third parties. Remember the McLaren work was in fact from Hercules in the USA and construction of such involves different technique, the castings that are part of it but also the carbon weaves and so on. All the components from this time were pretty special, remember that all that is built for time trialing is and was without consideration of yaw angle, only the best angle and that is where components and certainly carbon ones have made a big improvement. Torsional rigidity.

The Comete disc is simply a hub inserted between two plates of carbon filled-in with the foam you would use to fill a hole in wall and the version I have was the top end one, no aluminium brake outer circle, full carbon and pads eating right in there but ultimately, not rigid at all. For a fact, discs at that time were more or less straight conversion from track wheels, where brakes did not exist and surface was smooth. The 3G wheel at the front is still one of the most efficient wheel in terms of aero efficiency that you can buy but it lacks rigidity as well, the carbon weave is pretty gross and as such, it almost bends when I stand up, accelerate or take a bump. And I don't want to faceplant, that's for sure.

A good comparison, first ever carbon frame to win Le Tour de France was the Look KG86. Only the tubes were made of carbon and all the "joints" were metal. It was for lightness only back then. The rigidity only started in the 90s and understanding of weaves in cycling, I would say 2000s.

[midgetman]

Is this the one that Chris Boardman used for "The Hour"?

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[andy97]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Different stuff.

Carbon fibre in cycling was not used with the knowledge that was available in Formula One say back then and even there, a lot of the components were manufactured through third parties. Remember the McLaren work was in fact from Hercules in the USA and construction of such involves different technique, the castings that are part of it but also the carbon weaves and so on. All the components from this time were pretty special, remember that all that is built for time trialing is and was without consideration of yaw angle, only the best angle and that is where components and certainly carbon ones have made a big improvement. Torsional rigidity.

The Comete disc is simply a hub inserted between two plates of carbon filled-in with the foam you would use to fill a hole in wall and the version I have was the top end one, no aluminium brake outer circle, full carbon and pads eating right in there but ultimately, not rigid at all. For a fact, discs at that time were more or less straight conversion from track wheels, where brakes did not exist and surface was smooth. The 3G wheel at the front is still one of the most efficient wheel in terms of aero efficiency that you can buy but it lacks rigidity as well, the carbon weave is pretty gross and as such, it almost bends when I stand up, accelerate or take a bump. And I don't want to faceplant, that's for sure.

A good comparison, first ever carbon frame to win Le Tour de France was the Look KG86. Only the tubes were made of carbon and all the "joints" were metal. It was for lightness only back then. The rigidity only started in the 90s and understanding of weaves in cycling, I would say 2000s.

Interesting, Duddha, thanks.

[Gerard C]

Andy…

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by delta

Jeepers Louis. You got to let ma have a go. !!!

I'll let you have a go Iain of course

Originally Posted by midgetman

Is this the one that Chris Boardman used for "The Hour"?

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Same frame yes although Boardman had it badged as a Merckx and bars were for the now outlawed "superman" position.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by andy97

Interesting, Duddha, thanks.

I don't want to polute this thread with unecessary car stuff but talking carbon and its evolution through motorsport compared to cycling, I would say the following.

If you refer to John Barnard work and the MP4/1 build story, it is interesting to understand that at the beginning carbon tub were pretty much an assembly of various sections and a mandrel consisting of 5 parts when designed and including 10mm thick honeycomb aluminium as well as a few castings in some areas. The carbon was an the inner and outer cover to the whole assembly with the purpose of ensuring the best torsional stiffness. A good reference to understand how carbon works is in his book where he details the breakage of a carbon strip by bending it but explaining the work of the fibres and importance of unidirectional fibres and reinforcing cross plies. This was back in 1980-1981 and they worked with the best suppliers through Hercules in the USA and as said, outsourced the handling of the build. Another point he talks about is the glue which is what bonds the various strip and weaves of carbon together and here is where comes cycling and wheels.

Carbon really made a break into cycling in the late 80s and early 90s, mainly through triathlon racing, the wheels were fragile and very difficult to build but used heavily on long distance and flat courses as well as time trial, all where torsional rigidity wasn't a need.

As for motorsport, the understanding of the strips, weaves and how to make the whole ply work and the glue was also an issue as brake pads would heat the glue and that could alter the construction. On a carbon wheel you center the hub in the rim. Therefore the quality of the rim is very important.

If you compare 26 years from the Mavic wheels of 1994 I have and a Zipp Speed equivalent, a simple test can be done to witness the development and progress made, get on a hill and up with all weight on the front wheel and you will literally see the outer rim bend while a more modern wheel will actually be rigid and feel like you are riding along a rail. It all has to do with torsional rigidity and quality of weaves and glue. And we now use special pads as well for braking along with coatings to handle the heat.

Up to the late 90s and early 2000s a lot of pros would still race metal frames in time trial for the same reason, Armstrong won every time trial of Le Tour de France in 1999 on a titanium frame as an example.

[midgetman]

I was working for a cycle touring company at the time and we had a close relationship with Trek. I remember the weight of the front chainset in carbon. You barwly knew you were holding it.

IIRC the bikes had to be weighted to come up to the minimum, which is one reason why full carbon wasn't as appealing as one.wohld have thought in those early days.

I've never ridden a carbon bike but read a lot about how smooth they were, presumably at the expense of handling stiffness. Is that still the case?

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[Duddha]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I was working for a cycle touring company at the time and we had a close relationship with Trek. I remember the weight of the front chainset in carbon. You barwly knew you were holding it.

IIRC the bikes had to be weighted to come up to the minimum, which is one reason why full carbon wasn't as appealing as one.wohld have thought in those early days.

I've never ridden a carbon bike but read a lot about how smooth they were, presumably at the expense of handling stiffness. Is that still the case?

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It depends on the type of frame you ride and its geometry, they are okay but I wouldn't say smooth, the wheels play a lot in the feel you get but titanium frames are definitely the smoothest as the metal is sort of elastic.

On a time trial frame, the best bit is that in some parts the frame is soft and moves when you press it but ultimately it's rigid for straight line speed. And yeah, they are light, my full race bike weighs 7.5kg with the disc and front deep section aero wheel.

[Alan Morgan]

The manufacturers have become very good at providing stiffness and flexibility where they're needed in a frame. For the kind of cycling I do (recreational rather than competitive) one of the biggest contributors to comfort is the move to wider tyres. I'm using 32c (tubeless at 60psi on one of my bikes) and can't feel any penalty in rolling resistance but a huge improvement in comfort.

[Alan Morgan]

85km in the Surrey Hills today. Four Cat4 climbs and 1050m of climbing. Might have a day off tomorrow...

[Peter Mallett]

Well done Alan.

[S griffin]

Good work there. I went for a quick cycle into town and back to pick up my prescription

[Alan Morgan]

I've just bought myself some paddock transport. It's a Bianchi Mega Pro XL - the same kind of bike that Marco Pantani used to ride (but Ultegra rather than Campy and not in the Mercatone Uno colours). However, it does have the same gearing that he used to use on mountain stages 53/39 chainset with a 12:25 cassette. That should be fine for most UK paddocks. Not so sure about the climb up to the F1 pits at Spa though...

http://www.historicff2000.co.uk/Bike...iMegaProXL.jpg

[Alan Morgan]

http://www.historicff2000.co.uk/Bike...iMegaProXL.jpg

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

I've just bought myself some paddock transport. It's a Bianchi Mega Pro XL - the same kind of bike that Marco Pantani used to ride (but Ultegra rather than Campy and not in the Mercatone Uno colours). However, it does have the same gearing that he used to use on mountain stages 53/39 chainset with a 12:25 cassette. That should be fine for most UK paddocks. Not so sure about the climb up to the F1 pits at Spa though...

http://www.historicff2000.co.uk/Bike...iMegaProXL.jpg

The Mercatone Uno bike from Pantani victory at Mont Ventoux just sold for 66K€ last week.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Duddha

The Mercatone Uno bike from Pantani victory at Mont Ventoux just sold for 66K€ last week.

Wow.... over twice the estimate!

https://road.cc/content/news/pantani...auction-278939

over 160K€ raised with the other Pantani memorabilia sold. Proceeds to raise funds for the 2,000 employees affected by the bankruptcy of sponsor Mercatone Uno
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/r...auction-485958

[Alan Morgan]

Mine was never ridden by Il Pirata but it was only £350.

[midgetman]

Alan, have you not learned? You are doing yourself down.

Just as every "Lotus" Cortina is an ex-Jim Clark car, surely every Mercatone Uno replica is ex-Pantani

What's the cycling equivalent of Goodwood? You're guaranteed an entry with such an important bicycle.