De Cadenet Lolas

[Howard Wood]

I worked for de Cadenet in the two months leading up to and during the race in 1976 and 1977. Fellow New Zealander John Anderson worked full time for de Cadenet and did most of the development of the cars, I arrived in time to bolt it all together!
Vintage car restorers Dick Crosthwaite and John Gardiner were also on the team during the week in France.
From photographs I have, the 1976 car in Tait and Lyle/ Hammond Sauce livery carried race no 12.The car ran without any major incidents and finished 3rd over all. The car was a modified Lola with redesigned bodywork using an elderly Nicholson built DFV.
The 1977 car carrying race no 5 was a new car still using quite a lot of Lola components with a newly built body which had been tested in the MIRA wind tunnel. Using the same DFV but to full Grand Prix spec and with more time for testing it was a far better car. Unfortunately Chris Craft was the first competetor to discover it was raining on the infield section just on dawn and hit the wall. Repairs took the best part of an hour and the car finished 5th but only minutes away from 3rd.
de Cadenet may have received scant notice in the French press but he attracted an enormous amount of English press, especially the Daily Mail due to his oversize Union Jack signage.
If you look closely at the flags you will see 4 little stars attached being the New Zealand flag!

[AMICALEMANS]

Thank a lot to Howard Wood who confirm a big part of the story for 76 and 77
76 was LM2
77 was LM3

[driftwood]

so finally
LM2 3 4 practised for 1978 race LM3 DNQ
79 LM 2 3 4 raced under different titles

[AMICALEMANS]

Yes Driftwood, i think that now we have a correct story.
Now the only thing to know is :
What became LM2 between 1979 and Scandinavia !
What mean SLG 781 for LM3 which is also known as ADC 77/01 and who really owned the car after De Cadenet sold it (Dorset, Cooper, Lovett ? and who sold it to ray mallock who made the Ecosse GC284 with some component of LM3 (i think it is some one from Dorset...)

What mean GLC 913 for LM4 also known as ADC78/01 ...

Thanks for everyone who could help !

[allenbrown]

Dear AMICALEMANS

Where are you getting these numbers LM2 and LM3 from? Are they on the entry forms? Or in some other documentation? You tell us not to trust the journalists so who should we trust? Only you?

Some notes by 'untrustworthy' journalists:

Autosport 16 Jun 1977 p11: "last year's de Cadenet Lola ... which Simon Phillips would share with ... Tony Birchenough".

Autosport 15 Jun 1978 p15: "The 1976 De Cadenet Lola was decorated in the colours of BATCO; owner Simon Philips ... was with Nick Faure and John Beasley".

Autosport 15 Jun 1978 p15: "De Cadenet's 1977 Lola was in the hands of John Cooper/Pete Lovett".

Autosport 19 Jun 1980 p11: "Nick Faure is now the owner of former John Cooper/Pete Lovett car which was built in 1976 [sic]. Since Faure bought it three months ago, the car has been completely refurbished by his K&K organisation".

Autosport Le Mans Yearbook 1981 p7: "The older model which has passed into the ownership of Tony Birchenough".

[AMICALEMANS]

???? So sorry mister Allenbrown !
I told before that I SAW GLC913 plate on the Belga car (LM4) at Le Mans Classic 2006, and even Martin Birranne who own the car do not know about it.

SLG 781 is a number on the ACO entry form (see previous links i gave to see the pic of this entry form on the Motorlegend Forum)

I respect journalist (i was one !) but not for the precision like chassi number especially 25 years ago !

"Autosport 16 Jun 1977 p11: "last year's de Cadenet Lola ... which Simon Phillips would share with ... Tony Birchenough". THAT'S CORRECT LM2 DNQ

Autosport 15 Jun 1978 p15: "The 1976 De Cadenet Lola was decorated in the colours of BATCO; owner Simon Philips ... was with Nick Faure and John Beasley". THATS CORRECT LM2

Autosport 15 Jun 1978 p15: "De Cadenet's 1977 Lola was in the hands of John Cooper/Pete Lovett". THAT IS CORRECT BUT IT WAS NOT A LOLA, IT WAS A DECADENET LM3

Autosport 19 Jun 1980 p11: "Nick Faure is now the owner of former John Cooper/Pete Lovett car which was built in 1976 [sic]THAT IS NOT CORRECT BECAUSE IT IS LM3 AND NOT THE LOLA T380 (LM2). Since Faure bought it three months ago, the car has been completely refurbished by his K&K organisation".

Autosport Le Mans Yearbook 1981 p7: "The older model which has passed into the ownership of Tony Birchenough". THAT IS CORRECT IT WAS A DE CADENET LM3 AND DNQ (OLDER MEANS 1980) (THE BODY BELONGS NOW TO DRIFTWOOD !)

It will be more helpful if all journalists at that time wrote about Chassis Number. Why they did not do it ?

Best regards

[AMICALEMANS]

LM was the designation for De Cadenet's cars (except in 1975, it was T380 LM ! because it was a Lola)
So we spoke about LM and we add a number for better understanding.
I admit that the number is not an official designation.

[driftwood]

Allen do u not accept the LM2 3 4 cars are now accounted for?
LM2 is sold to Dorset for 1977 then sold to Phillips runs 1 year as BatCo car in 78 and Fisons livery as T286 for 79this car is Lola T380 hu1

Cooper bought LM3 from De Cad for 78 LM and DNQthompson chassis lola uprights
79 is entered as SG Lola
then its sold to Dorset for 80 LM and races 6 hrs at Brands in 81
sold to RML in 83? to create Ecosse car for 84

De Cad runs LM4 in 78 79 80 81 races LM and WCM eventsanother thompson built chassis probably using lola uprights and the same body shape as LM3 then sold to the Martin Bros in belgium then to Colin pool raced thundersportsand now that car is now with Martin B in Belga livery as it last raced

I sent u fotos of the LM3 in BRG for Cooper @78 LM ( car no 6 ) and 79 livery is st georges cross livery

MK has said the 80 81 ACR for Cevally is reported as being a Lola T380
could this be the Fisons car for 80/81 LM with Chevallys own body kit ( note the fotos T380 nose cone in the foto i sent to u maybe u can post them all here?- yes its beyond me!!)

will call Chris ADA and Tony B tomorrow to clarify some car info

[AMICALEMANS]

For the ACR, I am sure (we spoke with Chevalley, so it is better than a journalist !) he built the car on his Lola T286 HU07 which he race Le Mans in 1979 ! This car is now a Lola (this car ran in 2006 at Le Mans Classic)

[allenbrown]

So LM2, LM3 and LM4 are invented numbers?

I'm happy if they are, but we need to remember that they are invented and not start believing they are real. I would prefer to call the three cars De Cadenet Lola 76, De Cadenet LM 77 and De Cadenet LM 78.

I'm comfortable with the histories. They look solid and they explain almost everything. The problem is Briggs' report that the Ecosse was built on a Thompson tub marked ADC78/1. If these histories are right, that tub should have been the 1977 car. So that aspect of the histories may turn out to be wrong.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by AMICALEMANS

For the ACR, I am sure (we spoke with Chevalley, so it is better than a journalist !) he built the car on his Lola T286 HU07 which he race Le Mans in 1979 ! This car is now a Lola (this car ran in 2006 at Le Mans Classic)

That agrees with what Autosport said about the car at Monza 1980.

Allen

[AMICALEMANS]

LM 77 and LM 78 was not also officilal ! Please go and see the ACO Entry form...

Is it possible that : In 78, AdC ran with LM3 ADC77/01 and keep this car for him until 1981 (or swap it with LM4 each year !) In that case LM4 ADC 78/01 was built for customers...So the Martin Belga car, in that case is LM3.

[AMICALEMANS]

Please go to http://forums.motorlegend.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27067
Even with a poor french language, you wll be able to identify pics about the entry form (on this Forum, my nickname is MUSTANG66)

[driftwood]

Allen i sent u the fotos of the Cooper LM3 car from 78 LM i took it from the site as mentioned
http://forums.motorlegend.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27067

why not accept the defintions LM1 2 3 4 for De cads cars it makes sense
LM1 is Duckhams BT33 based car cum DFVW now back as Duckhams car
LM2 is Lola T380 hu1 cum Lola T286 ( fisons )
LM3 is ADC /77/1 ( thompson chassis lola corners) cum SG Lola ( 78 LM cooper car) later chassis is modelled into Ecosse GC284 ( now written off)
LM4 is ADC/78/1 (Thompson chassis poss lola corners) cum GLC 913

ACR Lola ok i accept as Lola T286 hu7 car remodelled bodywork with T380 nose ACR rear body now reinstated as Lola T286 car

[allenbrown]

I don't like making up numbers for cars that didn't have numbers. This has happened in F1 research and has later caused problems. The F1R Register invented P numbers for Parnell-built Lotus 24s but made it completely clear they were inventions and that worked well. The numbers Thomson invented for the LDSs worked a lot less well as it wasn't so clear they were invented and owners started putting them on false chassis plates. Then Lawrence came up with a different set of numbers and live got much worse. People now argue about who has LDS 06 and who has LDS 07, completely forgetting that these numbers were a 1970s invention.

I know LM 77 and LM 78 weren't official but the magazine coverage makes it quite clear than one car was built new for 1977 and another car was new for 1978 so all I'm doing is adding the year on the end so we know what we're talking about. My Indy records use this notation extensively (Eagle 68, Huffaker 64, Gerhardt 65, etc) as it allows a model of car to be identified without having to invent anything. The Eagle T1F and T1G notation used widely in F1 history books was an invention. Eagle never referred to a model but probably regarded the car as the Mk 1. The 1967 Indy Eagle, for example, was numbered as if it was the Mk 3 but never called the Mk 3 so I just call it the Eagle 67.

If we use LM2, LM3 and LM4, we are making the assumption that there was no car in between the 77 and the 78. What if one day we find that there was? Maybe due to an accident to the original 77 car? Would we call it LM3-and-a-half? If these numbers were used by the team, officially or even informally, then they'd be fine to use. But I don't see that they were.

Anyway, sorry for the long lecture. I'm watching the Superbowl and it's not really holding my attention.

Allen

[driftwood]

I take your point however LM 1234 does make sense and have they not been referred to these alongthe way?
calling the cars T380 hu1 the adc 77 adc 78 etc is misleading especially when
LM2 is entered later as Lola t286 lm3 is entered as SG lola etc
and even De cad & ACO where changing the names

im confident that we could call cars LM1234 and with the cars references alongside we will know what the car was in a given year ie LM3 is 1 car =ADC77/1 SG Lola or SG lola 381 is same car
LM1 is the BT33 based car
LM2 is T380 car cum T286
LM3 is ADC 77/1 cum SG Lola/SG Lola T381
LM4 is ADC 78/1 cum GLC 913
I think most guys would be happy to follow cars as De Cadenet LM1-4 as it cuts out the messy later owners titles that skew the cars true ID
you said
If we use LM2, LM3 and LM4, we are making the assumption that there was no car in between the 77 and the 78. i think thats fair to say its true no cars crashed to write off stateWhat if one day we find that there was? ok assume 1 car is badly crashed we could call it say LM3-2Maybe due to an accident to the original 77 car? Would we call it LM3-and-a-half? If these numbers were used by the team, officially or even informally, then they'd be fine to use. But I don't see that they were.
I'm watching the Superbowl and it's not really holding my attention now your leading a sad life thats a game of Rugby crossed with ozzie rules footie the yanks call Football -10 yards stop 5 yards stop 10 yards stop rather watch paint dry!

[AMICALEMANS]

Any news from people who now more than us, dear Driftwood ?

[driftwood]

i have been away a few days not had time to call the guys will try this tomorrow or friday

[AMICALEMANS]

i know i know now why 913 !!! It was the number of the Cosworth Engines
So
G for Gordon
L for Len
C for Cosworth

GLC 913 !

So know for LM3, SLG 781 ? 781 a cosworth ? who kows about these engines number...

[driftwood]

very high number for a cosworth

[AMICALEMANS]

I spent 7 hours at Retromobile today and bought a Brookland Books "Le Mans The Porsche Years 1975-1982" Its is race report from Autosport, Autocar, Motorsport, R&t and there is an interview of Keith Green in AUTOSPORT June 24 1976.

Question : What is this about the Cosworth DFV being of tremendous vintage, the engine Bruce McLaren used to win the 1968 belgian GP ?

Answer : It's engine number 913, the same block and crank that we ran last year and seven of the rods are the same (sorry there is 50 lines to copy ! and i am tired) He said also alain own also the 934...

Goodnight

[allenbrown]

Drifty, 913 means a 1969 engine, the 13th to be built in total. The first DFV was 701, not 001.

781 would not be a DFV number. They didn't build 81 engines in 1967!

[AMICALEMANS]

Mister Allen Brown, you are a great man ! Thanks a lot for your explanation !

So for LM3 the problem is now why SG lola 781 in 1979
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?i...hoto067wz7.jpg
or SLG 781 in 1980
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?i...to066ooit4.jpg

[driftwood]

Thanks for dfv number info as i cant affiord 1 never taken much interest in them!

Spoke to Chris ADA re the car he had built allegedly around T290 lola
The tub was the lola T390 tub used as a show car he used T380 suspension he bought from De Cad & he made his own body
The car was written off by the Polish driver circa 87?

The LM4 De cad car was LolaT280 uprights bellhousing
the LM3 car was T380 suspension ( this car became the Ecosse written off at Brands? ) on the Thompson chassis

[AMICALEMANS]

Great find Driftwood, thanks.

But my english is poor, what means "uprights bellhousing" ?