The watkins Lecture/Bernie's comments (merged)

[EvilPumpkin]

John (the John Smith John Smith not the John Gee John Smith ) perhaps it would be helpful if you could give us your background? I'm sure some people here know you but I'm not one of them and that was a fairly interesting first post - I'd just be interested to know what your involvement in motorsport is? Are you/were you a marshal?

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by John Smith

I watched Bernie on Motors TV last night; he has never come across very well doing television interviews except with Martin Brundle! I remember an interview on Nationwide in 1978 about Niki Lauda joining Brabham which had a similar tone. You have to admire what he has done for the sport.

Marshals' standards have dropped in the UK over the years and some clubs have difficulty in recruiting them for events. Training is for most is non-existent and more professional marshals are needed at major events.

Areas of improvement are as follows:

1 Medical training - All marshals should have a First Aid certificate and at least one Paramedic on each post.

2 Fire training - Proper use of fire methods should be taught.

3 Removing drivers from stranded cars and then off the track.

4 Carefull removal of stranded cars after a race.

Bernie blames the clubs for not providing proper training; however he did not portray this very well at the lecture. Use of professionals at NASCAR, Indy and CART events is common place over in North America and could soon be introduced for Grand Prix, A1GP, WTCC and FIA-GT. Cars and technology have moved on and so should marshalling standards.

'though most of the N. American series you mention are focused on oval racing - different animal from road circuits, a 'slight' clarification as regards INDY cars. At their first-ever street race in St. Petersburg, FL last April, it was marshals who kept the show going by removing virtually all stranded cars...earning a personal Thank You (and a renewed invitation) from IRL's President and sometime curmudgeon, Brian Barnhardt. There were, of course, regular and paid fire rescue personnel on hand also, but most worked seamlessly with the volunteers. Still some value in marshalling, one would think. By the way, our last local worker fatality, was a member of a NASCAR safety crew who was caught unawares by not looking 'up track' at Daytona two years ago, something most marshals learn day one, so who's professional?

[Stoowert]

So we have to admire what BE has done for the sport? If you mean driving the true fan away, making the F1 circus into his own private cartel, alienating some life-long marshals, then yes, he's done a great job - for Bernie Ecclestone...I put it you John, that if it hadn't been for the likes of Sir Jackie Stewart, Nikki Lauda et al there wouldn't BE an F1 for BE to take to the bank! Yes, I've marshalled in France, Belguim, Ireland, Canada and the USA and I can say we are the equal of anyone. EG I went with 5 other Brits to the Long Beach CART race in 2005. I was the only one not to win "Worker of the Turn" award! (I won mine in 2000, 2002 & 2003!)

In answer to a previous contri, YES the "Lecture" was heavily edited to show about the only 2 questions he answered in more than one word!

I still think it would be good to have Chris questioning Max Moseley! Max to get the press in and Chris to fly the flag! I think Max would relish the challenge and may do some homework...

[CombeMarshal]

The way I see it is if you volunteer you are only going to do it if you enjoy it, If it was a paid for job you COULD end up with a load of clock watchers who only do it cause it's a job.
As said before, you really need to get along to a training day, as belive it or not we are very well trained!

Well said steven & co, John????

[numbersix]

I view John Smith's comments with disbelief and amazement. With respect, John, you sound like a disgruntled driver, because, with equal respect, your experience of marshalling is certainly not mine. This Saturday, for example, at Donington I have no doubt that many marshals will have the opportunity to put out a complete, blazing car. I'm not a paramedic but the emergency medical advice/training we get, like how to hold a driver's head at least until a fully qualified doctor arrives 90 seconds later, I know for a fact has saved lives.
And finally, if you pay an idiot, he's still a idiot. Give me a competent, keen amateur to some so-called professionals any day.
I have many issues with marshaling but I have no idea where yours come from.

[John Smith]

It is a bit like the Premier League referee debate. Most are full time; however they did start off as volunteers. As Bernie said; you need to ask the clubs!

I live not far from Castle Combe and I am not a disgruntled driver; just someone who knows a few people in motor racing circles.

I hope you all have a good 2006 and enjoy your training day.

[b1ackcr0w]

I think asking Bernie to address this lecture was a bad move for everybody.

It's easy to see Bernie as cut-throat, but his function was a neccessary one. Motorsport needs a figurehead category that can compete with Football, the Olympics et al from a business standpoint. Before Bernie, the business dealings of F1 were an amateurish shambles. And for all the bad things Bernie has been responsible for, at least the sport has survived.

The trouble is, it's not Bernie's job to worry about safety. Bernie's job is to make sure that F1 makes an obscene stonking profit so that it will attract the kudos and therefore advertisers that make it viable competition against other sports. Putting him up in front of a bunch of motorsport safety experts is a bit like putting Sid Watkins up in front of a room full of Merchant Bankers to give a speach on Macro economics. He'll try his best, but at the end of the day, it's not his forte.

So, who's job is motorsport safety? I would say, the sports governing body, the FIA. So, will President of the FIA, Max Mosely be appearing at next years Sid Lecture? Bernie might have made a bit of an eejit of himself, but I think he was the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time. I wouldn't be anywhere near as forgiving If Max had the guts to get up there though.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I'm not a paramedic

Neither am I!

However I am an Ambulance Technician (Tech75) and a LOT of what I did on my training course to become such was learned from my experience and training as a Marshal!

[CombeMarshal]

If you were to say paralytic..................

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

If you were to say paralytic..................

Oh, I'm definately a paralytic

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by John Smith

It is a bit like the Premier League referee debate. Most are full time; however they did start off as volunteers. As Bernie said; you need to ask the clubs!

I live not far from Castle Combe and I am not a disgruntled driver; just someone who knows a few people in motor racing circles.

I hope you all have a good 2006 and enjoy your training day.

Ok that doesn't help - what exactly are your qualifications for passing judgement on current marshalling standards and on training methods? Apart from living near a race circuit and "knowing a few people in motor racing circles"?

Given your statements, I don't think that's an unreasonable question.

[Stephen Green]

Could it be flaming dear?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Could it be flaming dear?

Still wouldn't phase us, we'd put it out the same as anything else, and then get it off the track.

Originally Posted by John Smith

just someone who knows a few people in motor racing circles

So do lots of us, but many of the people we know know nothing about marshalling, including Bernie, the FIA, the MSA and mahy other organisers. Don't know who they think we are or what we do, but one of these days they're going to get a nasty surprise because either we're not there, or the massive inexperience in some of the countries F1 now goes to will be equivalent to no-one being there.

For the record - this isn't boasting, because most marshals I know would/could do the same if they were presented with the circumstances - my experience over 18 years include:

Saving a life (fractured skull, not breathing)
Several extrications, including being fully trained on KED unit.
13 fires, including a couple of big ones and an itsy-bitsy little brake one for which I was personally thanked by the team manager.
Several thank-you waves from professional drivers because I'd got a back-marker out of the way using the flag and a bit of pointing.

Standards may be slipping a little, simply because there's not enough of us and it's harder to give on-post training, but it's not by much and I have complete confidence in 99.5% of the people I work with week in, week out. I can't say the same about many of the organisers, even up to the highest levels, or many of the professional drivers whose attitude to yellow and red flags is cavalier to say the least. Now if Bernie had talked about that, we might have been impressed.

[Matt Dillon]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

I think asking Bernie to address this lecture was a bad move for everybody.


So, who's job is motorsport safety? I would say, the sports governing body, the FIA. So, will President of the FIA, Max Mosely be appearing at next years Sid Lecture? Bernie might have made a bit of an eejit of himself, but I think he was the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time. I wouldn't be anywhere near as forgiving If Max had the guts to get up there though.

Max did the Sid Watkins Lecture a few years ago. I found him very interesting.

[John Smith]

To answer Evilpumpkin's question; I am a Civil Servant and I cover health and safety. However I think the best way forward is to write to B.E. and I think you will get his views in a less blunt manor.

[Mark Mitchell]

I think the best way forward is to put the little man at the back of our minds, concentrate on the forthcoming season with our regular organisers and officials, and think about how much fun it will all be.

We're all getting wound up about something which, for 99.9% of our marshalling time, isn't relevent!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by John Smith

To answer Evilpumpkin's question; I am a Civil Servant and I cover health and safety. However I think the best way forward is to write to B.E. and I think you will get his views in a less blunt manor.

Ok so you're not a marshal, you have never been a marshal and you have never attended marshal training? Nor do you have any regular involvement at motor racing circuits that might actually support your comments?

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I think the best way forward is to put the little man at the back of our minds, concentrate on the forthcoming season with our regular organisers and officials, and think about how much fun it will all be.

We're all getting wound up about something which, for 99.9% of our marshalling time, isn't relevent!

I'm not getting wound up - I'm simply amused

[John Smith]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Ok so you're not a marshal, you have never been a marshal and you have never attended marshal training? Nor do you have any regular involvement at motor racing circuits that might actually support your comments?

What I am saying is don't take B.E's comments as a cricticism of you the marshals; but of your conditions and training and the organising clubs. I believe there are some interesting plans going ahead at Castle Combe.

I have been involved in marshall training in the UK and abroad and I have been a marshal; however not recently.

Evilpumpkin, Please tell of your experience and how you think the marshal's lot can be improved.

[Stephen Green]

That is for a different time and subject...

[Gridlock]

Hi EvilPumpkin. Can I suggest reading John Smiths comments you dont even go there?
The topic of how the marshals lot can be improved has been covered in many threads over the past twelve months and if John Smith has that amount of interest he no doubt will find it by taking time to read more than the last message.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by John Smith

I have been involved in marshall training in the UK and abroad and I have been a marshal; however not recently.

Ok so where did you do the training in the UK and abroad? Which circuit(s) did you marshal at?

[johngee]

Being mindful of the friendships and (admitedly dubious!!!!!) reputation that I have in motor sport, may I just emphasise that I am NOT the John Smith posting on this thread!

[Mark Mitchell]

Can you believe it?

Two John Smiths!

What are the chances of that happening eh?

[EvilPumpkin]

LOL - we know that John. If it helps, I doubt very much if the other John Smith is even a John Smith at all. Although he does seem a tad "bitter", so perhaps that's why he chose the name......

Personally I'm bored with him now, so back to topic I think!