Will a bike engined hillclimb car ever win the British Hillclimb Championship?

[bentimingstrut]

Any thoughts?Over 2u

[b1ackcr0w]

Can't see it happening in the next 5 years. There is a good point to this though. I think that the design of car and bike engines will become increasingly similar, with engines becoming higher revving and lighter through using bike engine technology. The reduction of the capacity of F1 engines will probably speed this trend eventually in lower branches of motorsport.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by bentimingstrut

Any thoughts?Over 2u

What about your thoughts ???


Over 2u

[Steve Wilkinson]

They already have!

1951 & 1952 - Ken Wharton in a Cooper-JAP Mk 4

In 1953 & 1954 he also used an ERA as well as the Cooper.

1955, 1956 & 1957 - Tony Marsh in a Cooper-JAP Mk 8

1958, 1959 & 1960 - David Boshier-Jones also in a Cooper-JAP

1961 - David Good in a Cooper-JAP

As for the current era there may be an outside chance if you consider the Powertek V8 in Trevor's OMS to be a 'bike engine'?

On Sunday at Harewood in the second wet run-off the bike engined cars were on the pace of the V8s up to Orchard then they fell behind on the blast up to Farmhouse and then the run up to Quarry.

Currently the attempts to either Turbocharge or Supercharge bike engines has not been successful, which isn't to say that they will continue to be so. However I suspect that they will still struggle to beat a good V8.

[DJ Racecars]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Currently the attempts to either Turbocharge or Supercharge bike engines has not been successful, which isn't to say that they will continue to be so. However I suspect that they will still struggle to beat a good V8.

What makes you say that?

The lastest superchargered version of our Firehawk (owned by Wallace Menzies) is putting out 360 bhp @ the wheels (172lb/ft torque) from a 1400cc Busa and we know more power is available either by running an intercooler or methanol. (this equates to 1080 bhp/ton which is compareable to a V8 powered unlimted class car).

Last weekend at Knockhill the car finished 3rd which isn't bad when you consider Roy was pulling 175mph down the straights compared to our 138 mph (on the rev limiter in 6th)

[DaveK]

DJ
If you take a Gould @ approx 450kgs/650bhp you get 1444 bhp/ton. which as Hillspeed says "you need brute force" to push it through the air.

The extra benefit of having excess power is that you can then run more aero without having to worry about the drag.

Dave

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by DaveK

DJ
If you take a Gould @ approx 450kgs/650bhp you get 1444 bhp/ton. which as Hillspeed says "you need brute force" to push it through the air.

The extra benefit of having excess power is that you can then run more aero without having to worry about the drag.

Dave

When talking about pushing through the air, the weight of the car isn't a factor, but the power, frontal area and Cd is.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by DJ Racecars

What makes you say that?

The lastest superchargered version of our Firehawk (owned by Wallace Menzies) is putting out 360 bhp @ the wheels (172lb/ft torque) from a 1400cc Busa and we know more power is available either by running an intercooler or methanol. (this equates to 1080 bhp/ton which is compareable to a V8 powered unlimted class car).

Last weekend at Knockhill the car finished 3rd which isn't bad when you consider Roy was pulling 175mph down the straights compared to our 138 mph (on the rev limiter in 6th)

I posted the comment about forced induction motor bike engines prior to my trip to Knockhill.

After seeing Wallace Menzies and the Firehawk I have to say that this combination looks very impressive. Still a few wrinkles to iron out but at Knockhill it went exceptionally well.

So my latest conclusion is that a forced induction bike-engined single seater could do very well indeed if committed to a full season in the British Sprint Championship. I remain to be convinced on their suitability for the British Hillclimb Championship - hopefully I will be won over at Doune!

[Cameron Winton]

Already happened - David Boshier Jones & Tony Marsh in the fifities using Cooper Jap's. The JAP V-Twin was used in Brough Superiors etc
Can't remember the other champions that used Coopers in the fifties.

[Cameron Winton]

Whoops - Steve beat me!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Cameron Winton

Whoops - Steve beat me!

Sorry about that Cameron, but I was always told a good beating was character building!

[Cameron Winton]

Ah Steve, I beat you to stating what kind of bike used the JAP engine.
Is Trevor's car the modern equivalent of John Bolster's Bloody Mary?
Two JAP's tied together?

[Paul Ranson]

Making some assumptions like the OP intended to write 'again' at the end of his subject line and that the rules don't change perhaps the discussion should be

'If you were looking to build a car to be competitive in the championship would you ever choose a bike engine?'

I think the answer is no. A competitive car needs a lot of downforce, therefore it needs a lot of power. A Hayabusa and a Cosworth XB have roughly equal cylinder capacities but the XB has much larger valves and a larger bore. That means it can flow more air and therefore make more power. And there is not a lot you can do to the bike engine to change that.

There are some XB internal photos at http://www.lolachampcar.com/Cosworth%20XB.htm with some Busa parts for comparison.

And of course the XB is not exactly modern. It is though very practical.

Paul

[bentimingstrut]

Maybe my post should have read "Can the championship now be won without using a Gould chasis?"

[Cameron Winton]

Adding to this, back in the fifities, the Cooper JAP had a significant power to Weight advantage over what was competing with conventional engines. Nowadays, because of the huge changes in different technologies, the ball game is completely different
So, my answer is no - Unless the rules change (Safety?)
As far as Gould's are concerned - Paul is probably more familiar with what they have done but from 1st impressions, will someone spend the money to develop a more aero-efficient or lighter XB powered car?

[Steve Wilkinson]

I suspect that if you spent the equivalent amount of money that you would need to purchase a brand new Gould Chassis plus sequential box and NME V8 then you may well be able to match the current performances - that is if you also had the talent of either Martin Groves or Scott Moran.

How about the 3 Litre Cosworth TJ V10 (which will have 900bhp and will run for 1200km between rebuilds) slotted into a Predator?



I think Paul Ranson hit the nail on the head with the comment 'If you were looking to build a car to be competitive in the championship would you ever choose a bike engine?' I suspect the answer would be NO assuming it was a money no object design.

[stevie m]

I think the closest bike engined car to challenge the Goulds and Pilbeams could be Ian Scott's Megapin.With it's turbo charged Kawasaki,once sorted in this superb chassis,might just win the British Sprint Championship in the future .

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by stevie m

I think the closest bike engined car to challenge the Goulds and Pilbeams could be Ian Scott's Megapin.With it's turbo charged Kawasaki,once sorted in this superb chassis,might just win the British Sprint Championship in the future .

I think Ian is a superb engineer. However I doubt very much that a Turbocharged Kawasaki could actually win either of the Speed Event National Championships, mind you I hope he proves me wrong!

[Dennis.Doyle]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I think Ian is a superb engineer. However I doubt very much that a Turbocharged Kawasaki could actually win either of the Speed Event National Championships, mind you I hope he proves me wrong!

I spoke to Ian a month or so ago at Teeside, but am sworn to secrecy until this year's machine breaks cover.

Re. a BEC wnning either of the chmpionships. Agree it's highly unlikley as things stand. Mind you if the courses used were a bit more twiddly favouring agility over grunt it could be a different story. Back in the days when the Coopers won, was this the case?

[DaveK]

I think any future advances will come with effective power management, as the big cars struggle to use all there power below 100mph, being able to harness the power (Loton april 2006,Willems Pilbeam is an example) and translate it into forward motion will pay dividends.

Dave

[jonners]

Another interesting angle on this - the analysis (of course) revolves around the bike engines currently available

Can't help wondering if the time will come when a sufficiently powerful bike engine is available, and what the bike will be like that it's designed for...

Are the bike engines people are using tweeked up to same extent that the bike racers use, or are the torque/bhp demands a completely different ball game?

[RED21]

I am just going to put a one of my warped idea’s / brainwaves (OUCH) down, so please forgive me!

If I was wealthy enough and stupid enough to purchase a Dodge Tomahawk motorcycle and then proceeded to install the engine into a single seat car, would this car become a “Bike engine car” or just a single seater with a Dodge viper engine in it???

[zac510]

Dennis, I follow the bikes a little on the side but from what I understand, they tune the engines for a nice wide flexible powerband due to the instability of the motorbike (high COG, two wheels, etc).

[hillsprint77]

Taking simply power to weight ratios as a guide it looks like a bike engine would have to be producing in excess of 350 hp to be getting close to a V8, which in rough terms ready to run with the driver on-board has an easy 1bhp per kg.

My Jedi of a few years ago weighed in at 285 kg, I was 70kg and it made 215 bhp and 115lb/ft from its 1370 GSXR. All that gives just over 0.6 bhp/kg, A Busa is apparently 10kgs heavier again. Powertec, who's figures I've found reliable in the past, say their best 1600 Busa is 270bhp. Fitting one of those you still only get 0.775 bhp/kg.

If you go any bigger on the bore you start to get shrouding and offset problems with the head, and stroking the engine will reduce it's rev potential.
Turbo charging brings in lag problems and also adds significant weight, but will eventually produce the power.

However, there is something in the back of my mind about how much force must be applied vertically on a square inch of rubber to transmit a certain amount of horsepower. So if you could get a really light high powered bike engined car how would it put the power down and how much aero drag would be generated in keeping it on the ground

I suppose an even easier way to see how far the BECs need to go is look at the speed trap times at the likes of Shelsley, I'm sure someone can quote them.

The old line of "you can't beat cubes" still holds good.

But mind you a Wee Wicked One is still much better than a Big Dopey One

[Jimbo88]

Now that Ilmor MotoGP has gone belly up, maybe someone with a wheel barrow of cash could slot of of those in a BEC. I hear they have a bunch kicking about.
They have all the bells and whistles, super light tiny things trick as you like with the f1 spec pneumatic valves and everything. Heard that they can rev to 22k, but then high revs are bloody useless cos you dont get many hillclimbs on hanger straight