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Old 13 May 2007, 22:24 (Ref:1912660)   #1
bentimingstrut
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Will a bike engined hillclimb car ever win the British Hillclimb Championship?

Any thoughts?Over 2u
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Old 13 May 2007, 23:49 (Ref:1912699)   #2
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Can't see it happening in the next 5 years. There is a good point to this though. I think that the design of car and bike engines will become increasingly similar, with engines becoming higher revving and lighter through using bike engine technology. The reduction of the capacity of F1 engines will probably speed this trend eventually in lower branches of motorsport.
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Old 14 May 2007, 08:29 (Ref:1912922)   #3
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Originally Posted by bentimingstrut
Any thoughts?Over 2u




What about your thoughts ???


Over 2u
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Old 14 May 2007, 09:01 (Ref:1912943)   #4
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History Lesson

They already have!

1951 & 1952 - Ken Wharton in a Cooper-JAP Mk 4

In 1953 & 1954 he also used an ERA as well as the Cooper.

1955, 1956 & 1957 - Tony Marsh in a Cooper-JAP Mk 8

1958, 1959 & 1960 - David Boshier-Jones also in a Cooper-JAP

1961 - David Good in a Cooper-JAP

As for the current era there may be an outside chance if you consider the Powertek V8 in Trevor's OMS to be a 'bike engine'?

On Sunday at Harewood in the second wet run-off the bike engined cars were on the pace of the V8s up to Orchard then they fell behind on the blast up to Farmhouse and then the run up to Quarry.

Currently the attempts to either Turbocharge or Supercharge bike engines has not been successful, which isn't to say that they will continue to be so. However I suspect that they will still struggle to beat a good V8.

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Old 23 May 2007, 10:39 (Ref:1919441)   #5
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Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Currently the attempts to either Turbocharge or Supercharge bike engines has not been successful, which isn't to say that they will continue to be so. However I suspect that they will still struggle to beat a good V8.

What makes you say that?

The lastest superchargered version of our Firehawk (owned by Wallace Menzies) is putting out 360 bhp @ the wheels (172lb/ft torque) from a 1400cc Busa and we know more power is available either by running an intercooler or methanol. (this equates to 1080 bhp/ton which is compareable to a V8 powered unlimted class car).

Last weekend at Knockhill the car finished 3rd which isn't bad when you consider Roy was pulling 175mph down the straights compared to our 138 mph (on the rev limiter in 6th)
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Old 23 May 2007, 11:55 (Ref:1919494)   #6
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If you take a Gould @ approx 450kgs/650bhp you get 1444 bhp/ton. which as Hillspeed says "you need brute force" to push it through the air.

The extra benefit of having excess power is that you can then run more aero without having to worry about the drag.

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Old 28 May 2007, 02:08 (Ref:1922492)   #7
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Originally Posted by DaveK
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If you take a Gould @ approx 450kgs/650bhp you get 1444 bhp/ton. which as Hillspeed says "you need brute force" to push it through the air.

The extra benefit of having excess power is that you can then run more aero without having to worry about the drag.

Dave
When talking about pushing through the air, the weight of the car isn't a factor, but the power, frontal area and Cd is.
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Old 23 May 2007, 12:18 (Ref:1919504)   #8
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Changing times!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Racecars
What makes you say that?

The lastest superchargered version of our Firehawk (owned by Wallace Menzies) is putting out 360 bhp @ the wheels (172lb/ft torque) from a 1400cc Busa and we know more power is available either by running an intercooler or methanol. (this equates to 1080 bhp/ton which is compareable to a V8 powered unlimted class car).

Last weekend at Knockhill the car finished 3rd which isn't bad when you consider Roy was pulling 175mph down the straights compared to our 138 mph (on the rev limiter in 6th)
I posted the comment about forced induction motor bike engines prior to my trip to Knockhill.

After seeing Wallace Menzies and the Firehawk I have to say that this combination looks very impressive. Still a few wrinkles to iron out but at Knockhill it went exceptionally well.

So my latest conclusion is that a forced induction bike-engined single seater could do very well indeed if committed to a full season in the British Sprint Championship. I remain to be convinced on their suitability for the British Hillclimb Championship - hopefully I will be won over at Doune!

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Old 14 May 2007, 09:02 (Ref:1912946)   #9
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Cameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Already happened - David Boshier Jones & Tony Marsh in the fifities using Cooper Jap's. The JAP V-Twin was used in Brough Superiors etc
Can't remember the other champions that used Coopers in the fifties.
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Old 14 May 2007, 09:03 (Ref:1912948)   #10
Cameron Winton
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Cameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whoops - Steve beat me!
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Old 14 May 2007, 09:15 (Ref:1912953)   #11
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Whoops - Steve beat me!
Sorry about that Cameron, but I was always told a good beating was character building!

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Old 14 May 2007, 12:18 (Ref:1913111)   #12
Cameron Winton
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Cameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ah Steve, I beat you to stating what kind of bike used the JAP engine.
Is Trevor's car the modern equivalent of John Bolster's Bloody Mary?
Two JAP's tied together?
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Old 14 May 2007, 13:15 (Ref:1913145)   #13
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Making some assumptions like the OP intended to write 'again' at the end of his subject line and that the rules don't change perhaps the discussion should be

'If you were looking to build a car to be competitive in the championship would you ever choose a bike engine?'

I think the answer is no. A competitive car needs a lot of downforce, therefore it needs a lot of power. A Hayabusa and a Cosworth XB have roughly equal cylinder capacities but the XB has much larger valves and a larger bore. That means it can flow more air and therefore make more power. And there is not a lot you can do to the bike engine to change that.

There are some XB internal photos at http://www.lolachampcar.com/Cosworth%20XB.htm with some Busa parts for comparison.

And of course the XB is not exactly modern. It is though very practical.

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Old 14 May 2007, 13:41 (Ref:1913178)   #14
bentimingstrut
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Gould

Maybe my post should have read "Can the championship now be won without using a Gould chasis?"
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Old 14 May 2007, 14:26 (Ref:1913220)   #15
Cameron Winton
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Cameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCameron Winton should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Adding to this, back in the fifities, the Cooper JAP had a significant power to Weight advantage over what was competing with conventional engines. Nowadays, because of the huge changes in different technologies, the ball game is completely different
So, my answer is no - Unless the rules change (Safety?)
As far as Gould's are concerned - Paul is probably more familiar with what they have done but from 1st impressions, will someone spend the money to develop a more aero-efficient or lighter XB powered car?
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