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Old 16 May 2007, 10:47 (Ref:1914565)   #16
Steve Wilkinson
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Not so twiddly-dee!

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Originally Posted by Dennis.Doyle
Re. a BEC wnning either of the chmpionships. Agree it's highly unlikley as things stand. Mind you if the courses used were a bit more twiddly favouring agility over grunt it could be a different story. Back in the days when the Coopers won, was this the case?
Not really, in the Hillcimb championship of 1952 for example they visited ...

Rest-and-Be-Thankful; Bouley Bay; Craigantlet (the 1833 yard version); Shelsley Walsh and Prescott.

It was just that the power to weight ratio advantage that the Cooper-JAPs had at the time far outweighed their lack of BHP. It wasn't until the 60s when the Cooper-Climax and Marsh Special hit the scene that the Cooper-JAP became obsolete.

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Old 16 May 2007, 15:00 (Ref:1914712)   #17
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I think any future advances will come with effective power management, as the big cars struggle to use all there power below 100mph, being able to harness the power (Loton april 2006,Willems Pilbeam is an example) and translate it into forward motion will pay dividends.

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Old 17 May 2007, 12:04 (Ref:1915294)   #18
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Another interesting angle on this - the analysis (of course) revolves around the bike engines currently available

Can't help wondering if the time will come when a sufficiently powerful bike engine is available, and what the bike will be like that it's designed for...

Are the bike engines people are using tweeked up to same extent that the bike racers use, or are the torque/bhp demands a completely different ball game?
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Old 17 May 2007, 21:51 (Ref:1915669)   #19
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I am just going to put a one of my warped idea’s / brainwaves (OUCH) down, so please forgive me!

If I was wealthy enough and stupid enough to purchase a Dodge Tomahawk motorcycle and then proceeded to install the engine into a single seat car, would this car become a “Bike engine car” or just a single seater with a Dodge viper engine in it???
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Old 17 May 2007, 22:04 (Ref:1915681)   #20
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Originally Posted by RED21
I am just going to put a one of my warped idea’s / brainwaves (OUCH) down, so please forgive me!

If I was wealthy enough and stupid enough to purchase a Dodge Tomahawk motorcycle and then proceeded to install the engine into a single seat car, would this car become a “Bike engine car” or just a single seater with a Dodge viper engine in it???
Wouldn't that really make it a single seater with a truck engine in it?

Going back to real bike engines, about which I know very little. I wonder if some of the versions you get in sprint & hillclimb cars aren't more highly tuned than say MotoGP engines. Certainly if you watch the revs displayed on MotoGP they are pathetic compared to F1, given the fact that small engines should rev much higher than big ones. Also, given the way that current bikes eat the back tyre, both on road & in short races, I suspect there is little motivation to tune them much higher in that context. I would have thought you could tolerate a much higher & peakier power delivery through a pair of 10" Avons than you could on any bike.

Probably wrong, but maybe interesting to discuss?
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Old 17 May 2007, 22:30 (Ref:1915696)   #21
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So how much bhp does a 1600 force produce ?
The Ducati motoGP bike is rumoured to produce around 240bhp from less than 1000cc ...
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Old 17 May 2007, 23:07 (Ref:1915715)   #22
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Dunno, but just had a look on the TTS site & they do a 1900 Haybusa for which they give 150ftlb & 245+bhp at back wheel for drag, hillclimb & sprint (bikes primarily I assume):

http://www.tts-performance.com/catal...38bdd554996661

Mind you it is 14 grand, i.e. more than you could have bought last year's BSC 2-litre class winner for. BTW I think that has a 270bhp n/a Cosworth in it + more torque + more weight primarily in the box.

The thing that makes the big bike engine look really sad is, of course, the Honda S2000 engine, which produces almost the same power in showroom spec with a catalytic convertor, would do a fair few miles without a rebuild & could be picked up from a scrapper for not a lot. That is what I shall dream about tonight

Last edited by Dennis.Doyle; 17 May 2007 at 23:17. Reason: afterthougt
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Old 18 May 2007, 04:06 (Ref:1915763)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis.Doyle
Going back to real bike engines, about which I know very little. I wonder if some of the versions you get in sprint & hillclimb cars aren't more highly tuned than say MotoGP engines. Certainly if you watch the revs displayed on MotoGP they are pathetic compared to F1, given the fact that small engines should rev much higher than big ones. Also, given the way that current bikes eat the back tyre, both on road & in short races, I suspect there is little motivation to tune them much higher in that context. I would have thought you could tolerate a much higher & peakier power delivery through a pair of 10" Avons than you could on any bike.

?
The reason MotoGP engines only rev to what you term pathetic, is partly because they are limited on how much fuel they can carry, as they are limited more each year to slow the bikes down. If they went quicker all the tracks would have to be remodelled, just like F1's move forom V10s to V8s. Also like you said the tyres cannot keep up with the power they have let alone more. When they were running 500 two strokes they would detune them to make them rideable where sidecar teams using the same engine could squeeze another 30 horsepower out through their 10 inch Avon.

Whether hillclimbers could squeeze more power out depends if they have a budget like MotoGP, but at least they don't need to last 30 laps.

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Old 18 May 2007, 07:28 (Ref:1915810)   #24
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I had no idea that MotoGP was restricted by fuel consumption & that does indeed suggest that a lot more power could be extracted from them.

BTW I only said "pathetic compared to F1" since the old 3 litre engines were doing about 19K revs so I'd expect a 900 to be capable of maybe 30K revs before if flew apart given the way things scale. Anyway, winding up bikers is always good for a laugh
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Old 18 May 2007, 08:11 (Ref:1915835)   #25
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Last years 990cc Moto Gp engines were reckoned to be in the 240/250 bhp bracket, primarily due to the revs that they could pull circa 16/17k.

Our 1600cc busa motor puts out approx 225 bhp/130 lb ft torque under 10k revs, where as our engine is based on a std production motor the Moto GP engines are purpose built race engines much in the same mould as an F1
engine.

I would be interesting to see a 990cc ducati engine fitted to a 1100cc hillclimb car, to see if it was much quicker than the current engines bearing in mind that you have to rev to 16k to get the power

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Old 18 May 2007, 10:08 (Ref:1915907)   #26
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Dennis, I follow the bikes a little on the side but from what I understand, they tune the engines for a nice wide flexible powerband due to the instability of the motorbike (high COG, two wheels, etc).
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Old 19 May 2007, 03:47 (Ref:1916486)   #27
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Taking simply power to weight ratios as a guide it looks like a bike engine would have to be producing in excess of 350 hp to be getting close to a V8, which in rough terms ready to run with the driver on-board has an easy 1bhp per kg.

My Jedi of a few years ago weighed in at 285 kg, I was 70kg and it made 215 bhp and 115lb/ft from its 1370 GSXR. All that gives just over 0.6 bhp/kg, A Busa is apparently 10kgs heavier again. Powertec, who's figures I've found reliable in the past, say their best 1600 Busa is 270bhp. Fitting one of those you still only get 0.775 bhp/kg.

If you go any bigger on the bore you start to get shrouding and offset problems with the head, and stroking the engine will reduce it's rev potential.
Turbo charging brings in lag problems and also adds significant weight, but will eventually produce the power.

However, there is something in the back of my mind about how much force must be applied vertically on a square inch of rubber to transmit a certain amount of horsepower. So if you could get a really light high powered bike engined car how would it put the power down and how much aero drag would be generated in keeping it on the ground

I suppose an even easier way to see how far the BECs need to go is look at the speed trap times at the likes of Shelsley, I'm sure someone can quote them.

The old line of "you can't beat cubes" still holds good.

But mind you a Wee Wicked One is still much better than a Big Dopey One
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Old 19 May 2007, 08:05 (Ref:1916563)   #28
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Now that Ilmor MotoGP has gone belly up, maybe someone with a wheel barrow of cash could slot of of those in a BEC. I hear they have a bunch kicking about.
They have all the bells and whistles, super light tiny things trick as you like with the f1 spec pneumatic valves and everything. Heard that they can rev to 22k, but then high revs are bloody useless cos you dont get many hillclimbs on hanger straight
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Old 19 May 2007, 09:22 (Ref:1916591)   #29
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Interesting facts & figures there Michael. Worth comparing with some of those from GWJ re. the V10 & V6 Goulds on this forum:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...t=94157&page=2

Must admit I'm always gobsmacked by how light & powerful both the BECs & big single seaters are - I have difficulty controlling 180bhp, propelling 475kg!

Re. the limiting factors of light weight & traction. I really can't make up my mind, but FWIW:

Top cars accelerate at much more than 1G, i.e. <2 secs for 1st 64ft, hence they are able to transmit more than 1kgf of tractive effort for each kg they are accelerating. Obviously the laws of glue apply here rather than Newtonian friction. I'd think that every kg you can shed you can make use of for acceleration & cornering - assuming A45's are soft enoough of course.

I'd wondered if the transmission isn't really the limiting factor? That is where the BECs really save weight. It's also a reliability problem for some competitiors I've spoken to running fairly cooking bike engines (<180 bhp).

Either way, another US saying that applies is "a good big un will always beat a good little un" - don't suppose the front runners have gone from 2.6 to 2.8 NME V6s 'cos they are slower!

Re. Jimbo88's comment on the Ilmors - I'd also wondered if there was any possibility of trickle down from MotoGP to speed events. Take your point about hangar straight & do remember Glyn Sketchley in a 500 Jedi finishing ahead of all the V8's at 3 Sisters (a sprint, but a twiddly one!) in 2000.

Still reckon it's a case of horses for courses.
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Old 20 May 2007, 10:31 (Ref:1917124)   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo88
Now that Ilmor MotoGP has gone belly up, maybe someone with a wheel barrow of cash could slot of of those in a BEC. I hear they have a bunch kicking about.
They have all the bells and whistles, super light tiny things trick as you like with the f1 spec pneumatic valves and everything. Heard that they can rev to 22k, but then high revs are bloody useless cos you dont get many hillclimbs on hanger straight
However they would be pretty good in the British Sprint Championship!
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