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Old 4 Aug 2020, 12:32 (Ref:3992894)   #196
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Alfisti should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlfisti should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlfisti should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAlfisti should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
Had a pretty decent day on Sunday. The BTCC races were really good, the Juniors were fun again, and the Minis were absolutely brilliant. F4 could do with a few more cars, as could the big Ginettas and Porsches.

My anti-magnet worked as always and sent the trouble to colleagues at other parts of the circuit, although we did collect Will Martin's Porsche after the steering broke.

I might, if I can convince the family, go and do Silverstone too. They might have other plans though as I reach a bigger, more rounded age that weekend...
Congrats on the bigger rounder age!

Hopefully you will be allowed out to deploy the anti-magnet and maybe consume copious quantities of appropriately orange iced cake
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 13:55 (Ref:3992916)   #197
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Originally Posted by Heavyd123 View Post
What type of input does bmr have to do with that car?
Sorry to be repetitive, but in answer to how much BMR does:

'As well as bringing the nucleus of his former BMR crew with him to LTR, Sutton has been reunited with engineer Dan Millard, who ran his Levorg to the title in 2017 and then, with the WSR team, oversaw Colin Turkington's 2019 success with BMW.'
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 14:29 (Ref:3992934)   #198
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Sorry to be repetitive, but in answer to how much BMR does:

'As well as bringing the nucleus of his former BMR crew with him to LTR, Sutton has been reunited with engineer Dan Millard, who ran his Levorg to the title in 2017 and then, with the WSR team, oversaw Colin Turkington's 2019 success with BMW.'
Ahh, so he's got BMR on his side and Hexathron are with Moffat?
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 14:48 (Ref:3992939)   #199
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Thatís what happens, usually members of defunct teams are picked up somewhere else pretty quickly
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 15:36 (Ref:3992956)   #200
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Originally Posted by Craner Curves View Post
Ahh, so he's got BMR on his side and Hexathron are with Moffat?

In January, they talked about Frederico Turrata engineering Moffat's car, which I get the impression has been impacted by COVID. I seem to recall that Hexathron's support has been restricted due to Italian movement restrictions, so Moffat's support has been remote.

https://www.btcc.net/2020/07/31/lase...dy-for-action/

'The carís been redesigned, a collaboration with the Laser Tools Racing team, BMR Engineering and input from our engineers at Hexathron Racing Systems also.'

All along, they've talked about BMR looking after Sutton's car. When Moffat confirmed Turrata as his engineer, they said that Tony Carrozza was joining the team to work with Sutton, and the addition of Millard seems to have strengthened the position.

It's worth understanding the background of the two engineering arms currently preparing the Q50, to understand why the situation is loaded in Sutton's favour.

Turrata was the man who put the idea of resurrecting the Q50 to the Moffats in the first place, when they were initially only bought for track day use. They had no IP rights to the A-Class, with those held by Ciceley, so their development options were limited.
The Moffats initially approached Warren Scott with a view to getting Moffat into a Subaru a few years ago. When Turrata had convinced them to take on the Q50, agreement was reached between the two teams that Sutton could help with testing at Snetterton. Further discussions, when it became clear that the Subaru's life was coming to an end, led to an agreement that BMR's chief engineer Carrozza would lead the development of the new car in the joint effort, with consultancy from Turrata.
Carrozza had joined BMR following the departure of Faux and Millard at the end of 2017. In March of this year, Sutton is quoted as "All the people working on my car are exactly the same as the last couple of years." We were in a situation where it was very much the existing Laser Tools crew led by Turrata running Moffat's car, and the BMR crew led by Carrozza looking after Sutton.
Moffat Sr confirmed this "We've used some of their engineering staff for the build and development of the car, we're quite happy to support BMR Engineering, and their members are working on Ash's car".

Prior to Jordan's withdrawal, he was due to be working with John Waterman, however with one less car there became a surplus of engineers at WSR. That resulted in Dan Millard departing to join Sutton shortly before the start of the season.

So when you add it all up, you have a car that was designed by a set of engineers who had experience of one of the drivers. That driver was involved with testing and developing the car, and has won the title in RWD before. He has now been joined by the engineer who supported him in his title season.
Whereas on the other side of the garage, you have a car that was new to the driver last season, where the driver has minimal RWD experience. That driver's main engineering support has been restricted to remote consultation.

It's not hard to see why Sutton's performance advantage seems to exist in comparison to Moffat.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 16:25 (Ref:3992967)   #201
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
In January, they talked about Frederico Turrata engineering Moffat's car, which I get the impression has been impacted by COVID. I seem to recall that Hexathron's support has been restricted due to Italian movement restrictions, so Moffat's support has been remote.

https://www.btcc.net/2020/07/31/lase...dy-for-action/

'The carís been redesigned, a collaboration with the Laser Tools Racing team, BMR Engineering and input from our engineers at Hexathron Racing Systems also.'

All along, they've talked about BMR looking after Sutton's car. When Moffat confirmed Turrata as his engineer, they said that Tony Carrozza was joining the team to work with Sutton, and the addition of Millard seems to have strengthened the position.

It's worth understanding the background of the two engineering arms currently preparing the Q50, to understand why the situation is loaded in Sutton's favour.

Turrata was the man who put the idea of resurrecting the Q50 to the Moffats in the first place, when they were initially only bought for track day use. They had no IP rights to the A-Class, with those held by Ciceley, so their development options were limited.
The Moffats initially approached Warren Scott with a view to getting Moffat into a Subaru a few years ago. When Turrata had convinced them to take on the Q50, agreement was reached between the two teams that Sutton could help with testing at Snetterton. Further discussions, when it became clear that the Subaru's life was coming to an end, led to an agreement that BMR's chief engineer Carrozza would lead the development of the new car in the joint effort, with consultancy from Turrata.
Carrozza had joined BMR following the departure of Faux and Millard at the end of 2017. In March of this year, Sutton is quoted as "All the people working on my car are exactly the same as the last couple of years." We were in a situation where it was very much the existing Laser Tools crew led by Turrata running Moffat's car, and the BMR crew led by Carrozza looking after Sutton.
Moffat Sr confirmed this "We've used some of their engineering staff for the build and development of the car, we're quite happy to support BMR Engineering, and their members are working on Ash's car".

Prior to Jordan's withdrawal, he was due to be working with John Waterman, however with one less car there became a surplus of engineers at WSR. That resulted in Dan Millard departing to join Sutton shortly before the start of the season.

So when you add it all up, you have a car that was designed by a set of engineers who had experience of one of the drivers. That driver was involved with testing and developing the car, and has won the title in RWD before. He has now been joined by the engineer who supported him in his title season.
Whereas on the other side of the garage, you have a car that was new to the driver last season, where the driver has minimal RWD experience. That driver's main engineering support has been restricted to remote consultation.

It's not hard to see why Sutton's performance advantage seems to exist in comparison to Moffat.
Wow! A very thorough & detailed explanation of the situation, thanks for going to the trouble of doing so
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 18:22 (Ref:3992981)   #202
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Wow! A very thorough & detailed explanation of the situation, thanks for going to the trouble of doing so
The interesting part to me is that Ciceley hold the IP rights to the A-Class, which means that Laser Tools were not able to develop it.
I can understand that from teams like Dynamics or WSR, who have built their cars. The questions I still have though are:

Why couldn't a.n.other team build an A-Class, and develop it to their specification?
Does the same apply for something like the Hyundai - where now it has been homologated by Excelr8, does that mean they own the IP?
Can IP transfer once a team no longer runs a car - such as the FK2 Civics?
Are Dynamics more willing to accept teams developing their IP (such as BTC), than WSR?
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 18:53 (Ref:3992988)   #203
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Why couldn't a.n.other team build an A-Class, and develop it to their specification?
I suspect it's more about homologation that IP. TOCA will allow a single aero kit for each model which gets wind tunnel tested and to be homologated each year. So for something like the FK8, what Dynamics come up with is what BTC have to use. With mandated roll cage design and common parts, there's a limit to what else could be covered by IP.

Not sure how that works with cars like the FK2 and 1-series which are no longer run by the people who originally built them. I'm guessing WSR could agree to let Parker or HARD come up with this year's kit, and if TOCA insisted then submit the paperwork under WSR's name.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 19:36 (Ref:3992998)   #204
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Thanks crmalcom, much appreciated, cleated things up
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 19:51 (Ref:3993000)   #205
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RS67 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
In January, they talked about Frederico Turrata engineering Moffat's car, which I get the impression has been impacted by COVID. I seem to recall that Hexathron's support has been restricted due to Italian movement restrictions, so Moffat's support has been remote.

https://www.btcc.net/2020/07/31/lase...dy-for-action/

'The carís been redesigned, a collaboration with the Laser Tools Racing team, BMR Engineering and input from our engineers at Hexathron Racing Systems also.'

All along, they've talked about BMR looking after Sutton's car. When Moffat confirmed Turrata as his engineer, they said that Tony Carrozza was joining the team to work with Sutton, and the addition of Millard seems to have strengthened the position.

It's worth understanding the background of the two engineering arms currently preparing the Q50, to understand why the situation is loaded in Sutton's favour.

Turrata was the man who put the idea of resurrecting the Q50 to the Moffats in the first place, when they were initially only bought for track day use. They had no IP rights to the A-Class, with those held by Ciceley, so their development options were limited.
The Moffats initially approached Warren Scott with a view to getting Moffat into a Subaru a few years ago. When Turrata had convinced them to take on the Q50, agreement was reached between the two teams that Sutton could help with testing at Snetterton. Further discussions, when it became clear that the Subaru's life was coming to an end, led to an agreement that BMR's chief engineer Carrozza would lead the development of the new car in the joint effort, with consultancy from Turrata.
Carrozza had joined BMR following the departure of Faux and Millard at the end of 2017. In March of this year, Sutton is quoted as "All the people working on my car are exactly the same as the last couple of years." We were in a situation where it was very much the existing Laser Tools crew led by Turrata running Moffat's car, and the BMR crew led by Carrozza looking after Sutton.
Moffat Sr confirmed this "We've used some of their engineering staff for the build and development of the car, we're quite happy to support BMR Engineering, and their members are working on Ash's car".

Prior to Jordan's withdrawal, he was due to be working with John Waterman, however with one less car there became a surplus of engineers at WSR. That resulted in Dan Millard departing to join Sutton shortly before the start of the season.

So when you add it all up, you have a car that was designed by a set of engineers who had experience of one of the drivers. That driver was involved with testing and developing the car, and has won the title in RWD before. He has now been joined by the engineer who supported him in his title season.
Whereas on the other side of the garage, you have a car that was new to the driver last season, where the driver has minimal RWD experience. That driver's main engineering support has been restricted to remote consultation.

It's not hard to see why Sutton's performance advantage seems to exist in comparison to Moffat.
Yes Moffat is new to rwd, but neither of them drove the car last year, they are both new cars.
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Old 6 Aug 2020, 11:31 (Ref:3993309)   #206
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Well finally got to watch the last race from Saturday, and it was good, Sutton is a class act but after 3 round 3 different winners in 3 different cars. BTCC is what racing should be fun and unpredictable, so glad it is back and looking forward to next sunday even though i will disappointingly not be there
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