Budget estimates for ELMS LMP2

[donati]

Hello
We are a group of "privateers" who are exploring the possibilities of entering one car in one or more of the ELMS events.
We are in an early state of planning, and would love to get some info from those that know, as we are novices in this field of racing
What kind of budget should we allocate for tyres?
Other wear and tear parts? (brakes, clutch, shocks, etc.)
What will be the cost of rebuilding the engine / gearbox, and how often should we expect to have this done? We have not decided wich engine to use, but we are fairly certain to use a Lola B2K/40.
Is fuel covered by the entry-fees? (supplied by the organiser of each event).
Other major items on the budget?

We have the funding to buy a race-ready car including transporter, but would need sponsors to cover the running costs (or part of).
On the subject of sponsors; are there rules that prevent the adverticement of alcohol related products?

Are the entry to the events by invitation only (like LM), or is it free (apart from the entry fee) for us to attempt to qualify for the race?
What are the specific formula used to decide how many cars can be allowed in, in each class? (total grid cannot exceed 38 cars, from what we understand).

Any insight will be greatly appriciated

Mvh. Finn Donati

[Tim Northcutt]

To Donati....

I am not formally in the racing business....thus, I shy away from giving "advice" to those who have the funds and plan to invest their money in a racing adventure....

A few months ago, I did a lot of research and did a thread that I called "LMP Program on a Shoestring" that tried to assess a reasonable, cost-effective budget for an LMP1 team competing in the ALMS...a 9-race season as opposed to a 4-race season for LMES (not counting Le Mans, which is a whole different animal for cost, etc.)

That thread might still be somewhere in this index, if you want to look it up...

But my budget estimates were "High"....and in some areas, "VERY high"

I applied "ballpark" costs not only from web searches for actual prices for engines, chassis, transporters, spare parts, etc., but also from people I know here in Indy who are in other forms of major racing (mostly open-wheeled) to get other ideas and rough costs to figure a budget...

I received numerous private messages from forum members who have either been involved in this type of racing in the past or are currently involved now...They gave me some really good information about how much it "really" would cost to race here in North America...

and it is not as expensive as you would think, if you do it right...and I can tell you from the people I know from those PMs, as well as my friedns from open-wheeled racing, that they were, or are now, VERY competitive at this level of racing...

I promised those people that I would publicly share that info in very general terms only, since it is info about how they conduct their own racing operations...so I can only give you general elements, ideas and approaches, plus basic ballpark costs on the things I do know....

The IRL guys said I could share the costs...because they are generally known for the things I asked them about...

But I do not know if the LMES fees, the fuel costs, etc., are similar, or if they are very different between the two series....

I would hate to share any kind of general "ballpark" info with you, based on ALMS numbers, only to have you find out that in Europe, those costs are much higher in real $$$....

If you want to send me a PM, and tell me as much as possible about how you and your friends plan to approach this, what you have in place already, etc., I can do my best to give you some info....

I can share some other things with you that I have learned about options that might warrant consideration...things like whether to lease your engines, or get something that you can buy and set up a service/enhance agreement with a performance builder....things like that....there are pros and cons to both....

But the choices you will make for the chassis, the engines, etc., also will have an impact on your overhead, how much personnel you'll need to run the operation, costs for re-builds, how often the re-builds will have to happen, parts, the costs to maintain the car, etc....

Othr costs like for tires, etc., can vary based on whether or not people with your operation have any kind of long-time connections from other racing series with a supplier like Dunlop or Goodyear, etc...if they know your people (Team Manager,Chief Mechanic, etc.) and have worked with them for years in racing, there can be some savings worked out here and there on things like a tire contract...


Drop me an e-mail and tell me as much as you can...I'll ask around and dig around and find out as much as possible on the things I can't answer...

I'm not an expert...far from it....and may others could probably give you much better advice than I...

But I know quite a few people who race..I live in a big racing town...and they share a lot of info with me that would have at least some carry-over to what you're planning to do....

[dretceterini]

Are you talking about a car built to the new LMP2 rules, or an older car that would be legal? The difference in cost would be quite substantial.

[Tim Northcutt]

I tiotally agree, dretecterini....

That's why I asked donati to share as much as he could...to find out their actual direction....

The costs could be quite affordable...or VERY expensive....

A NEW 2004 specs car could cost a great deal to commision, design, test (in the tunnel), test on the track, change problems that were not accounted for in the initial design, etc....

Look at the issues that the MG-Lola has gone through....and the costs involved to develop that car ove rthe past three years....

This sport can be a money pit....

But I also know that it can be done cost-effectively...if good decisions are made as to how one chooses to go about it...

[dretceterini]

I think the cheapest cars out there are probibly a Tampolli or Lucchini SR2. If one of the IRL motors would this might be a cheap and successful way to go. I don't think the Nissan or Alfa motors are really competitive at this point...

[SFonseca]

Mr Finn Donati,

If you real want to join to LMES and endurance racing league you must speak with Benjamin Franassovici from Stephane Ratel Organisation (SRO). He is the best persson to help you.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Donati:

I have given this thread A LOT of thought over the weekend, and wanted to at least present some thoughts for your consideration, or some options that might stimulate some discussion among you and your partners:

Based on information you presented to open this thread, I am wondering if you have priced any items at all (a chassis, transporter, etc.) and in general, what kind of capital you and your fellow investors are willing to spend....

When I did my "LMP Program on a Shoestring," I recalled some Lola B2K/40s for sale....I also looked up a few other models as well in some searches and came up with the following:

Pilbeam M84 (Team Jota Car, with 2 Nissan V-6's & parts):
approx. 104,000 Euros (listed as 70,000 British Pounds)

Pilbeam M84 (Former ALMS podium winner, w/ Nissan Engines & Parts):
apporx. 112,000 Euros (listed as $141,000 USD)

B2K/40 (Chassis 001, ran Grand Am & ALMS, w/Nissan engine & Parts):
approx. 88,000 Euros (listed as $110,000 USD)

Debora (w/Alfa 3.0 L engine & parts):
Listed as $57,200 Euros.

two other Lola B2k/40s (one form Knighthawk Racing listed for $98,000 USD- or approx. 78,400 Euros; and a roller chassis listed for $80,000 USD - or approx 64,000 Euros) that had been sold...

I also saw transporters listed from $40,000 USD to as high as $175,000 USD that were all 46 ft. long semi-trailers....one for $80,000 was heavily equipped and really a steal....

However, There may be some things you would really want to consider if you and your partners are serious about pursuing this:

1. If it were me, the first "purchase" would be the services of a Team Manager who has experience in sportscar racing...hire that person to drive the process for you...like selecting the best deals for equipment, what chassis and power combos would be the "best bang for the buck," and buying what you "Need," like tools, shop space, fuel rig equipment, etc....that person would also have contacts and be able to hire the mechanics, drivers, etc... that person would have at least some knowledge of suppliers for parts, the cost of doing business, etc., as well....this person would also possibly be aware of sponsors, or others who may not be involved now, bout were in the past or would like to be...for the additional capital needed to operate...

I already have laid out what I would do and how I would do it, depending on how much money I actually had available, but think about these as options, as opposed to "Going it on your own":

1. Look for teams that you have seen on SR2 Class entry lists that are not showing up on lists now....those people may be selling equipment for cheap to offload it, OR BETTER YET....

1a. They might have had a sponsor or two that had left them, and the ONLY reason why they are not still racing is because they are that amount of money short of funds....You could possibly either:
- Buy into a majority share of this operation that already has the key assets in place, or
- Become an important part of their operation as a minority participant...

You could be the difference between them racing or not racing, and they already have the elements in place...you're not starting from scratch....

as "novices," you'll want experienced people to be able to compete at this highest level of sportscar racing....and the assets that are already in place in that race operation will give the team the needed funding to race...

2. Or you could look at an already-entered team that might be doing things on a tighter budget, but your funding through some sort of partnership would allow them to "upgrade" their car...and their competitiveness...

your money might allow a team with a good chassis, but average power, to launch a strong engine program....

or a team with an older chassis and only partial funds for a newer car, to buy a Courage C65 with your share as "partners" with them kicked into the budget....

At least this is something for you to think about...because Sponsor $$$ are VERY TIGHT in ALL forms of racing...it takes many contacts to put those kinds of deals into place....and being new to the sport, it may prove even more difficult to break into those circles to seek the sponsor funds you would need to make a go of it....

As for me, if my colleagues and I could pool enough funds to buy a chassis with an engine and a transporter, plus some race budget (my guess is in the range of $200,000-$400,000 USD), my choices would be simple:

I'd pick "1a" or "2"....your money would go farther, and you would be a key part of an effort that would be much more competitive WITH you than WITHOUT your help...

If you are still interested in knowing more, please do e-mail me or send me a Private Message or E-mail by clkicking on my name on this post....

I can give you at least some "basics" and such that would at least help you to set a target budget if you and your firends wish to take the next steps toward becoming "Donati Racing"....

Thanks!

[Tim Northcutt]

BTW...

Don't read anything "negative" into my previous post....

I'm not trying to discourage you.....

In fact, you and your partners might think that the money you can put together will buy only a chassis and engine and a transporter, when it might buy A LOT MORE....

Like I said earlier in this thread....

I laid out numbers that I thought would be a "Shoestring" budget, only to have guys who are "racing in reality" -- and doing it quite successfully -- doing so on about 65%-70% of the budget that I presented in that LMP/Shoestring" thread....

I'd be very interested in knowing how much capital you actually do have to work with....and you don't have to post it publicly if you don't want to....but do send me the e-mail or private message with at least a "Ballpark" figure....

In reality, I think you could race for a lot less in Europe than here in the ALMS (IF those operating costs are similar) simply because you have less than half of the events on the LMES schedule....

[donati]

Thank you to Tim and others who have shared thoughts. It is really appriciated, and much more than i had hoped for.

In reply to especially Tim, i want to clarify the objective of my group, a little further.
First, we are Europe based, and will not be looking at entering any races in the US.
We are all complete novices regarding the LMP2 / SR2 type cars. We have however allmost all of us driven some kind of racing before, mostly in the German VLN series, wich is a sort of endurance racing for touring cars. All races in that series are held on the Nürburgring Northloop, and are between 3 & 6 hours long.
What we are looking at is forming our own LMP2 team, buy a used car with engine and spares package, and enter as many LMES races we can get sponsors for, or can finance ourselves. We do not even consider being competitive, the main objective is to have fun, basically.
If we are able to qulify our car for the race(s) we end up entering, it will be a great succes.

Thank you very much for the pointers regarding different cars to choose.. we are tempted by the B2K/40's available, but are also afraid that they are getting too old.'
The MP84's are also being discussed.
This is the single biggest discussion point right now
We belive we definately have to find a car we can use for atleast two seasons.
Do you not think the Nissan engines are underpowered for the B2K/40's for example?

Our initial budget for buying "whatever we will need", excluding the transporter, is in the 150k usd range.
Besides that we hope to find atleast some sponsors, to cover entryfees and other direct costs of entering the events.
By now the idea seems more realistic than when it was first mentioned.
We have secured an old, but ok transporter, and as one of us are part owner in a paintshop, it will be painted in teamcolors free of charge.
We still have to find out if beer adverticing (sponsors) are allowed, because we have a good conection here, wich we belive can secure a sponsor.

We hope to be able to run our "little" team, without having to hire anybody. All the work is ment to be done by ourselves and friends.

I will go look for this "Shoestring" thread you mention Tim.
And i will get back if we have more questions.
Im pretty sure the others wont like the idea of naming the team "Donati Racing"

Mvh. Finn

[JAG]

Seeing as the MG and DBA LMP675 cars will be in LMP1 next year, the class of the LMP2 field will be the Courage C65.

The Lola B2K/40s should be the best of the rest in LMP2. Plus you have the choise of a wide range of engines.

There will also be a ready supply of spares and info on the cars from the US teams such as Rand etc. who have run the cars.

Lola have also announced that they will be producing an update kit to convert the Lola B2K/40 into a true LMP2 spec car.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Donati:

There is a thread also running called "LMP2 Chassis & Engines," where there has been discussion of power options for this class...

Take a quick read there...

Also, here is one of the websites (out of Many, many sites) that I surfed for my "Shoestring" thread....

www.racecarsdirect.com

that's where I saw the Pilbeams, the Debora (which is an older chassis)and the B2K/40s....you can look these cars up in the cars for sale by clicking on the drop-down and going to "sportscars"

There are 380 listings in there in that category as of today...
some are smaller classes, etc, but there are a few options in there to look up if you're interested...

They also have listings for transporters, parts, and equipment...

But I also would encourage you to look at a site like:

www.wsrp.wz.cz

Why????

That's a place where you could look up teams that did race FIA-SCC over the last two years, but may not be racing now....

I'll bet you could buy what they raced for a real bargain and have more $$$ to work with....

Also, I would do various searches for specific chassis (like Tampolli or Lucchini) with the words For Sale to see what you might come up with....

[Tim Northcutt]

To Donati...I sent you a couple of e-mails in response to your e-mail to me....

Bottom Line:

You actually have an engine in-house from your current racing program that has been "Homologated" for the GT Class, and thus would be a suitable powerplant for your LMP2....(the BMW M3 in-line 6)

Your budget is a rather thin "Shoestring"...this will free up $$$ for other parts of your efforts....

[Osella]

What you must do is buy a Debora and the next best car you can afford. That way you can offer your sponsors exposure on two cars (If debs qualifies, that is!)

Best of luck in your project!!

How about an Osella??

[dretceterini]

Does Osella still make cars? As to the Debora, it is ancient and I don't think it could be competitive. The car ran first with an Alfa motor, than with a Ford 4 cylinder...

[Tim Northcutt]

Since donati stated in a post above that being competitive would be great, but not a high priority, I would buy the least expensive chassis I could find that would be able to at least get you qualified for the events....

$150,000 USD would be nearly shot on either one of the Pilbeams, and the Lola with the Nissan motor would only give you $40,000 USD to play with....

Since you have the experience with the BMW 3.2 L I-6, and maybe even have one race ready from your tourning car, get a roller chassis for the best price possible and race with that engine, so that you'll have money for race expenses....

Also, look up in the "parts" secion of the website I posted for you for a used gearbox....If you check the hewland gearbox site via search engines, they will recommend the best type of gearbox to use for this form of racing, even with costs in mind....

Then look for one of those in the "Parts" ads....but there may be other sites or gearboxes that are better suited to your engine and your needs....

Like I said earlier...$150,000 USD is a VERY thin "Shoestring"...stretch your money as far as possible....

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Osella
What you must do is buy a Debora and the next best car you can afford. That way you can offer your sponsors exposure on two cars (If debs qualifies, that is!)

Best of luck in your project!!

How about an Osella??

*************************************************

Debora (w/Alfa 3.0 L engine & parts):
Listed as $57,200 Euros.

(Posted By Me...Tim)

Well....Hope you were the buyer of the Debora, Donati...

It has been sold since this thread started....just in the last week or so....

To Osella:

There are plenty of them...various years...for sale on that site and for a reasonable price....

A couple of Harriers as well....both with Le Mans Pedigree....also for reasonable $$$$

Any thoughts or ideas on what it would take to get an Osella or a Harrier up to 2003 specs to run for Donati & Friends to run this season????

[veeten]

Originally posted by Osella
How about an Osella??

then again, how about a Pedrazza? Very nice chassis.

www.prc.at/

the cars look very competitive.
www.prc.at/fotogalerie_1/bild_07.htm
www.prc.at/fotogalerie_1/bild_06.htm

yet this chassis design has me thinking that I've seen this before...

www.prc.at/fotogalerie_1/bild_10.htm

Hmmmmmm...kinda like the MkIII-A, eh Tim?

[Tim Northcutt]

Very Much like the MkIII-A...

How much do they sell for????

[Tim Northcutt]

A roller chassis goes for 45,000 Euros....weighs 520 kg. (from what I could translate anyway....I don't speak German....)

[veeten]

from what's on the site, it looks like a max of 45,000 euros. Somehow, I get the feeling that this chassis is more for a junior sportscar series, especially with the engine size is 2L 4-cylinder.

But, there's also a plan ahead for them to build, refine, and enter a LeMans chassis by '06. Very good.