Driving Standards.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

He basically says proscribed rules in what is wrong and what is right with mandatory penalties is killing the sport. He advocated no time penalties just the black flag. Drive like an arse and you're out, basically, and it's a subjective decision not stewarding by numbers.

That's an idea that has some appeal but would likely be shouted down as unfair simply because it IS subjective.

'Back in the day ...' unreliability played a big part in results, strategies and rewarded those who were both fast and able to look after the car.

Whether is helped the spectacle or the championships is up for debate but, with most tracks being used at the time not offering good track edges or usable run-off areas (hard or soft) it seemed to encourage the 'pilotes' to drive within the lines if only to avoid breaking anything or risking a puncture.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by grantp

Yes I get that but it still seems to be distracting to the driver to put the things where they are. And then flash them.

And what is the information displayed? Some other sort of use beyond the blue class/speed identification light?

Presumably these lights will, in some indirect way, have an influence of driving standards, especially for the way that slower cars might be expected to use them to identify when to get out of the way.

Maybe they are more distracting on in-car video than they are are in reality for the driver.

I suspect your final point is true.

The light doesn't convey any information, it is simply a blue beacon designed to warn the driver ahead that a much faster car is approaching. Otherwise all the slower driver will see is dazzling lights, often being flashed.

The Nurburgring is brutal. It is narrow, twisting, dark and has barriers a few yards from the sides of the track. The 24H race has everything from GT3s driven by WEC world champs to little hatchbacks driven by amateurs. There are loads of classes so many different speeds. It's actually hardest for the middle-level classes (who are both overtaking and being overtaken) than the fastest or slowest.

At the same time as all this there are regularly intervention vehicles on track, either rescuing cars, repairing barriers or just moving from point to point. This is managed with yellow or white flags, slow zones and code 60s, there are no safety cars.

All this is why a specific permit is required with quite demanding participation requirements (including having to do a race in a slower car).

Yet, to bring it back to this thread's topic, I reckon there are fewer egregious examples of poor driving during the 24 hours of the N24 than you'll see in an ordinary club meeting in the UK, or for that matter in Pro-Am events like Blancpain, which is regularly a demolition derby. The organisers are extremely strict, the participation requirements are steep and the track itself savagely punishes poor or dangerous driving.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by grantp

Whether is helped the spectacle or the championships is up for debate but, with most tracks being used at the time not offering good track edges or usable run-off areas (hard or soft) it seemed to encourage the 'pilotes' to drive within the lines if only to avoid breaking anything or risking a puncture.

Or, indeed, to avoid burning to death or being mangled in the wreckage of their totally unsafe car.

[AndrewCherry]

It's difficult! It only takes one driver to use a bit more of the scenery and not get penalised for all to then do it - otherwise the level playing field is gone. So you've got to be super strict with whatever rule you decide, because if people think you'll get away with it sometimes, they'll play the odds.

Getting rid of kerbs and making run-offs much less friendly doesn't seem too likely as a solution, as much as it might hark back to the golden days (in some senses - ignoring the massively increased injury/fatality!) Taking my own world in terms of karts, pretty much everywhere we race is also used for corporate/hire karting (can't think of an exception right now). The trend has been towards flatter kerbs and more run off because injuring paying members of the public is bad for business. Yes, those of us doing it regularly at a higher level could certainly keep it within the lines (normally), but a first timer maybe not - and that's who they'll "look after". Buckmore, for example, has just ripped out the nasty serration and sausage through the esses and replaced it with something you can run quite happily. I imagine the same may well apply to "big car tracks" as well in terms of track days and so on.

I don't think any driver would actually mind, whatever the regulations were, provided they were enforced strictly, consistently and full-time - otherwise it's a battle with the rules.

[GORDON STREETER]

Build a moat round both sides of the track

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

On the topic, I have always understood that two wheels over the white line is acceptable, four wheels is not. I have heard this said so many times that it never occurred to me there was any other view! I am also surprised to read rules stating that kerbs are considered part of the track. As the white line is always painted between kerb and tarmac it seems clear that they are not part if the track, but that two wheels on them is fine as long as the other two are on the tarmac side of the white line.

Depends where you're racing and under which rules. Racing under MSUK rules and two wheels over the white line is not acceptable unless two of those wheels are on a kerb. This is the 6th year for those regulations.

It is only fine to have two wheels on the kerb if they are on the kerb and not over the other side regardless of whether the other two wheels are still within the white line.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Depends where you're racing and under which rules. Racing under MSUK rules and two wheels over the white line is not acceptable unless two of those wheels are on a kerb. This is the 6th year for those regulations.

It is only fine to have two wheels on the kerb if they are on the kerb and not over the other side regardless of whether the other two wheels are still within the white line.

Having just caught up yesterday with my recording of the BTCC at Croft, where as ever the esses after Clervaux appear to be treated as a straight line, application of the rules is a little patchy, it would seem

[The Fat Clerk]

As a Clerk, too my mind the simple solution is something that's not in the Yellow/Blue/Gold/White book ( delete as appropriate), it's called common sense

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

it's called common sense

Thank you this is damn right.
We all know the rules they are clear and displayed everywhere and we all attend briefings. It works in the Uk and in other countries. So what? You'll always have a small batch of drivers playing the game with their own rules, mainly pas vu pas pris, overtaking anywhere, SC FYC, jump start and so on.
With the help of CoC's, marshals and live timing they can be caught, this kind of attitude is dangerous must be policed and punished . Unacceptable, modern F1 or clubby.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

As a Clerk, too my mind the simple solution is something that's not in the Yellow/Blue/Gold/White book ( delete as appropriate), it's called common sense

But of course it is TFC. The problem is (as I mentioned in another recent thread) we don't adhere to that kind of thing anymore. Everything has to be regulated and closely defined, then people can spend a load of time (and money) arguing why, what they did may have looked outside of the regulations, but because of certain (nefarious) reasons, it was completely inside of the regulations.
As shown in baubles lovely video earlier, back in the day common sense was used and so rule books that look like (old) telephone directories (have you seen how small these are nowadays?) were not needed...

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I suspect your final point is true.

The light doesn't convey any information, it is simply a blue beacon designed to warn the driver ahead that a much faster car is approaching.

Ah, Ok.

In both the in car videos (where it seemed to flash a lot) and the external shots they looked like panels that displayed characters that changed in some sort of cyclical fashion.

Might simply have been an effect of the video recording frame rate I suppose? But the changes as I perceived them (and assuming they exised!) certainly suggested that they were presenting some sort of information for use by someone.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by grantp

Ah, Ok.

In both the in car videos (where it seemed to flash a lot) and the external shots they looked like panels that displayed characters that changed in some sort of cyclical fashion.

Might simply have been an effect of the video recording frame rate I suppose? But the changes as I perceived them (and assuming they exised!) certainly suggested that they were presenting some sort of information for use by someone.

The panel cycles through driver name, class position and flashing light(s). I don’t think it hinders the driver, as it’s mounted flush against the screen, so there shouldn’t be any scatter. Let’s be honest, in this day and age, if there were any safety concerns it wouldn’t be there!

[Simon Hadfield]

Ok, so, having watched the replays of the Grand Prix at the weekend how would would you react when a kid in a Formula Ford in a club race does the same as Max Claire? Because the ISC which was used to ok this devolves to the MUK regulations. Can we miss the apex and push the other car off the road?

With your imaginary wall that could not have happened........

[midgetman]

With a wall or even grass there Leclerc would have lifted and undercut. Acres of tarmac? I'll just keep my foot in and see what happens.

That was a very common karting move, Charles was "podded" off.

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[Simon Hadfield]

So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?

Seems to me it was less 'with in the rules', than having screwed one GP by penalising the winner, 'they' (whoever) could not do it again for fear of even more of an outcry. Or maybe it is Ferrariphobia a well know hate crime.

Viewing a lot of club racing thorough a camera lens, I have to say I do not see many instances of poor driving standards, at least in terms of aggressive behaviour. In terms of race craft …………………?

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?

Neither, nor I fear Simon. May be its common in modern racing, accepted or not, but should be banned in Historic imo. I guess we have some names…

[Mike Bell]

I was going to ask on the F1 forum what would have happened had there been a wall on the outside of the corner, but difficult to get an objective discussion sometimes on there...

I agree with Max that Leclerc would have lifted and gone for the undercut, as the commentators love to call it nowadays. As for whether the MV move was legitimate or not, my guess is that in single seater club racing it wouldn’t have even been questioned? If I had been in Leclerc’s position, I would have lifted and tucked in, but I’m a long long way from that level of racing!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?

It's a fine art. Doing it while making it look as if the other driver was the aggressor is the skill. You must ALWAYS push your arm out straight with the palm up shouting "what the....."

The other bane of any karter's life is that oft-misquoted phrase from Senna:

"If you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver. "

Everyone forgets the words "that exists!"

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[bauble]

[QUOTE=Mike Bell;3915640]I was going to ask on the F1 forum what would have happened had there been a wall on the outside of the corner, but difficult to get an objective discussion sometimes on there...

Mike! You must be a very brave man indeed to even consider venturing on to the F1Forum, and in any case the word 'wall' would have confused most of the posters there.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

So is “podding off” (ohh er missus) an accepted or acceptable move?

It certainly is in Karting Simon, I see it every month when I'm Stewarding in England & Wales and am not expecting anything different @ Nutts Corner on Saturday. C'est la vie as they say in foreign parts.

If it's necessary or not is another matter, the BRSCC FFord race @ Mallory a few weeks ago involving yourself, your son, Peter Daly, Jack Wolfenden, Stuart Kestenbaum, Mark Bates et al was an absolute classic and had a worthy winner

[Woolley]

There's a further issue here that helps confuse the situation. Motorbikes.

To stop cars using the kerbs what we need is big, uncomfortable ones that they'd rather keep off. Unfortunately bikers don't like them (for understandable reasons) so we have stupid flat ones which just become part of the track. And then FIA events allow them to use not just that but large parts of the run-off as well (I was track limits at WEC a while back, F3s were given to the edge of the green paint as a limit, about 3 car widths outside the track, and were also given three goes at it.

It should be the same as rugby. Touch the white line, take a driver through. End of. Possibly we could write a rule which allows for avoidance, but only if someone can come up with a way that it's not used as a loophole.

[midgetman]

It's not only bikes, it's things like track days and corporate days. Driving skills (not standards) are *sometimes* lower and often drivers/operators don't like the thought of their cars clunking on a huge kerb. It's not for nothing that the Bedford Autodrome is the most liked corporate venue in the UK. With its billiard smooth grass you can push to the limit without risk of damage.

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[bauble]

Not my area of expertise, but I always think that an off track excursion of this nature should carry a penalty, perhaps 'run off' areas should be designed to slow a car down in some way, without causing a danger.
Some sort of surface that increases drag, the current smooth surface does nothing to deter it's use.

Where's me hat?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by bauble

Not my area of expertise, but I always think that an off track excursion of this nature should carry a penalty, perhaps 'run off' areas should be designed to slow a car down in some way, without causing a danger.
Some sort of surface that increases drag, the current smooth surface does nothing to deter it's use.

Where's me hat?

Well, Circuit Paul Ricard / Le Castellet has beaten you to it, Baub. The garish stripes outside the track are clever rather than pretty. (Definitely not pretty ) The blue stripes are more abrasive than the track, and the red stripes extremely abrasive- enough to damage your tyres if you’re not going in a straight line. All designed to slow an out of control car, rather than use gravel traps.....