Modern Group A

[Samwhk]

Yes, yes, we all know it would never happen. But that doesn't mean it's not a cool idea, no?

What manufacturers would you like to see compete, and with which models? Would you like to see it become the Touring Car standard set of rules worldwide, and then we could have a PROPER WTCC again? Include races such as Bathurst, Wellington, Spa, Nurburgring, Monza, Brno?

Ah, day dreams on quiet days at work.

Anyhow, fire away boys.

[Umai Naa]

Obsticles such as money, egos, and politics would need to be overcome, before that sort of thing can happen again.

[Samwhk]

Oh yeah, I'm fully away that there's more chance that I won the $27mil last night than this happening, just a nice day dream is all.

I'm not really old enough to remember, but would perhaps Group C be a better option? I know they looked a lot tougher, but what were the main differences?

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Oh yeah, I'm fully away that there's more chance that I won the $27mil last night than this happening, just a nice day dream is all.

I'm not really old enough to remember, but would perhaps Group C be a better option? I know they looked a lot tougher, but what were the main differences?

The Group A cars were slightly less prone to breaking down or catching fire than Group C...

[Samwhk]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

The Group A cars were slightly less prone to breaking down or catching fire than Group C...

Those Sierras must've been running to Grp C specs then?

Still, I'd love to see a grid of 40-odd modern Grp A cars, that you and I could (theoretically) wander down to the local dealer and buy.

Possibly you could have a price cap on the retail value of the vehicle, similar to the Production classes, 2WD only, use a weight/tyre width ratio and whatever else you clever lads and lasses can think of to keep costs down and competition up.

Obviously there would need to be several classes based on engine size, aspiration etc.

[Axeman444]

i'd love a Bugatti Veyron 1-make series

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

i'd love a Bugatti Veyron 1-make series

Same Company already runs a few events like that.
They have placed limits on it to (allegedly) limmit cost and so they call it a Porsche series
Can never understand the demise of Group A. A truly fantastic opportunity for both the sport and the auto industry for an effective showcase and a development lab.
Maybe it was just to sensible and logical.

[The Generals Army]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Same Company already runs a few events like that.
They have placed limits on it to (allegedly) limmit cost and so they call it a Porsche series
Can never understand the demise of Group A. A truly fantastic opportunity for both the sport and the auto industry for an effective showcase and a development lab.
Maybe it was just to sensible and logical.

1 reason, to much cheating. Then manufacturers started backing out, also in australia crowds werent that crash hot (except bathurst)

[peckstar]

all these cars racing that people couldnt identify with didnt help either.

[Umai Naa]

The rulebook was too open to interpretation, meaning what one country and it's governing body enforced, was always different to another country.

The cars themselves weren't the problem. It was an international formula afterall, so even in Australia, you had to expect to see some cars that were never (or perhaps should've been) marketed here.

The FIA didn't help matters at all. Cashing in at the drop of a hat, and only enforcing rules when there was minimal loss at their own expense, it seemed.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The FIA didn't help matters at all. Cashing in at the drop of a hat, and only enforcing rules when there was minimal loss at their own expense, it seemed.

Thats the FIA for you.

I'd love to see the return of Group A. It spawned some awesome homolgation specials that are still revered around the world today. It would be nice if all touring cars around the world had to be based on such special cars.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

all these cars racing that people couldnt identify with didnt help either.

Is that really true though? I mean you look at whats happening now and in especially next year - do you expect people to start turning away?

Group A was definitely a highlight of touring cars in this country.

[Downoz]

Originally Posted by peckstar

all these cars racing that people couldnt identify with didnt help either.

Sounds similar to a situation that a certain series is headed to here.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Is that really true though? I mean you look at whats happening now and in especially next year - do you expect people to start turning away?

Group A was definitely a highlight of touring cars in this country.

It was always my favourite time, some great Bathurst races under Group A, always interesting once Brockie stopped being allowed to win everything by writing his own rules...

It was Godzilla and the Jim Richards booing thing that killed it, wasn't it?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Is that really true though? I mean you look at whats happening now and in especially next year - do you expect people to start turning away?

Group A was definitely a highlight of touring cars in this country.

it absolutely was true, but it's only one of the reasons, its not the only reason.

and group A was also a lowlight (but it was a highlight also) see Bathurst 1987 and Bathurst 1992

The thing is, next year, it will look like a hotted up commodore or falcon (same as now) or the nissan altima people will be able to buy next year

But thats off topic, and i wont be discussing it again in this thread (happy to discuss it in an appropriate thread though)

[Umai Naa]

Would simply putting the SS bodykit on the Commodore, the XR8 bodykit on the Falcon, and a Nismo bodykit on the Altima be enough to narrow the gap between racecar and road car?

Lets be real here, you couldn't buy an exact example of the race car from the showroom back in the Group A days, just as you can't now. So for me, that argument was always pointless. Even production race cars wouldn't pass a roadworthy in most states.

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

It was always my favourite time, some great Bathurst races under Group A, always interesting once Brockie stopped being allowed to win everything by writing his own rules...

It was Godzilla and the Jim Richards booing thing that killed it, wasn't it?

Yeah DQing 2 Fords and letting him swap cars

Wasn't that Bathurst win that killed it, was already dead by then. Costing way too much money. Skaife was quoted in an article in the last year or two saying to run those 2 GTR's they were spending more than they were to run HRT a couple of years ago. Costs just got too high for the manufacturers and they pulled out.

[Umai Naa]

Fred Gibson had mentioned at one point that they were only spending the money because it was there to be spent. They could've done the same job with Winfield backing alone, such was the budget they had.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Fred Gibson had mentioned at one point that they were only spending the money because it was there to be spent. They could've done the same job with Winfield backing alone, such was the budget they had.

Ha, the good old days of tobacco sponsorship, eh?

[Samwhk]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Would simply putting the SS bodykit on the Commodore, the XR8 bodykit on the Falcon, and a Nismo bodykit on the Altima be enough to narrow the gap between racecar and road car?

Lets be real here, you couldn't buy an exact example of the race car from the showroom back in the Group A days, just as you can't now. So for me, that argument was always pointless. Even production race cars wouldn't pass a roadworthy in most states.

Probably for the casual viewer that would be. Although, the casual viewer will then probably ask why these 'standard' cars are running around on the track.

I guess I just like the idea of cars racing with their own DNA again.

[Woolley]

Ah, why go Group A when you could have Group 5...

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Ah, why go Group A when you could have Group 5...

I googled it because i am way too young.

Not something we had in australia, at least i dont think so, as i said, way too young

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by peckstar

all these cars racing that people couldnt identify with didnt help either.

I can certainly identify with a Commodiore that has had 4 inches cut out of it to make it fit a chassis that is the same as the so called Falcons and Nissans have to run. The very same chassis that no one except a V8 Supertaxi team can buy. The same one that bears no resemblance with the road going version from any of the 3 entrant manufacturers.
Group A had its' problems and I think with the right sort of tweaking could be made relevant and sustainable. Have a look around the local car parks and see which manufacturers are represented there.
make it 2wd, no homolgation specials, high homologation numbers, only models that have achieved the required number of sales of a particular model would be allowed to race in that country not cars that have achieved the sales figures somewhere else in the world, etc. Yep, I know that would eliminate my own cars under these rules but we're talking now or in the future.
Bring it on and we might get some interest in a race meeting for the racing and not just because of the after race concert as seems to be the case at times.

[Umai Naa]

The point I was trying to make earlier is how close to a road car does it have to be, before you have to chop and change to make things fair/competitive, safe, or viable?

When you think about it, after 25 years (we could regard '87 as the turning point of Group A), we've ended up where we are now with V8SC, for the exact reasons I mentioned above.

[racer69]

I grew up watching Group A so have a soft spot for it... however there certainly were flaws in the system.

The main ones, in my opinion, were the 'homologation special' rule with the short run of 500 cars, and the turbo equivalency factor was way too low... changing the tyre width rules in '88 didn't help either

It never bothered me watching Sierra's and Skyline's, as mentioned earlier you had to expect that with an international formula, plus although Holden was a little hampered by the regulations, they could still run near the front.... infact if you take out the GTRs, the VN Commodore's were every match for the Sierra's and M3's in 1991.

You'd be pushing it uphill to get a ruleset like that introduced anywhere in the world for a frontline touring car series these days though, everyone has gone too far down the 'spec' path to turn back.