Group B vs Modern Equipment

[chunder]

How good is that Wambergue fotage and how superb does that car sound, no anti lag, no fancy diffs, just 600 hp and a right foot, bloody excellent, best thing I have seen on here for months, well done that man!!

[DCS]

205T16:
Hope to see that again in real life!
Love to own one too...

Give it Proflex, ALS, new tyres and active diffs and it will be invincible... (if the weight is not increased and the restrictor is not smaller)

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by DCS

Give it Proflex, ALS, new tyres and active diffs and it will be invincible... (if the weight is not increased and the restrictor is not smaller)

But that's taming the beast! The lack of fancy gadgets is part of what makes these cars so special, modern cars are quicker but are an exercise in technological wizardry - the 205T16, Quattro S1 etc are just sheer brute force, they're savage!

[DCS]

Are omdern cars really quicker? I don't think so! On Valkenswaard Kenneth is about 4-5 seconds slower than Schanche in his non restricted RS2000, which was about a milisecond faster than his RS200. So if Hansen wouldn't have new tyres and ALS etc, the gap would probably even bigger about 6-7 seconds. I think the group B is the king in straightline speed and standing starts, Hansen's is best in handling and out of the corner throttle respons...

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by DCS

Are omdern cars really quicker? I don't think so!

I'd say the modern cars are quicker - in the British championship Doran finally gave up on his RS200 as it was no longer competitive and whilst Gibson still pedals the 6R4 hard it's an outside bet for a top finish.

Originally Posted by DCS

I think the group B is the king in straightline speed and standing starts, Hansen's is best in handling and out of the corner throttle respons...

Straightline speed the Group B cars have it no question, off the line and handling the modern cars are far superior - it's all about the diffs!

And back to topic .........

[DCS]

I ment the 45 mm cars... The former modern Britisch cars where very powerfull! If all are the same rules, modern will win! Imagine how quick they could be, modern cars of 900 kg en near or over 800 bhp: monsters!

You're right: show the pics!

[chunder]

Doran only gave up because he was carrying an extra ton of weight i think you'll find.\I reckon the sponsors and everything were actually quite attracted to the old RS an no wonder, that thing made the most beautifulnoise!
Pat was pushing the boundaries though, seq box and remote dampers and stuff, plus he was having to push the engine to new levels to compete with the active diff cars that had so much more traction!

I also refuse to believe that any car is as quick off the line as an Xtrac Escort or a 205, they just flew off the box

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by chunder

I also refuse to believe that any car is as quick off the line as an Xtrac Escort or a 205, they just flew off the box

I don't know, Schanche's Escort RS2000 was awesome, I remember seeing it at the 93 Grand Prix at Brands it was incredible, as was joranli's Calibra at Estering in 94 it blitzed everyone off the line but I don't think it finished a race.

[DCS]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

I don't know, Schanche's Escort RS2000 was awesome, I remember seeing it at the 93 Grand Prix at Brands it was incredible, as was joranli's Calibra at Estering in 94 it blitzed everyone off the line but I don't think it finished a race.

The 1995 and 1996 spec RS2000 (and Hansen ZX) were quicker than his RS200, but then the Regs say add weight and put a 45 mm restrictor and now they don't have that flying speed on the longer straights, like in Holland and in the UK. In the tighter circuits in Belgium there is not much difference...

Yeah Joranli and the vacuumcleaner sound, just like one of the 1988 Iversens RS200...

[WJM]

Originally Posted by DCS

Are omdern cars really quicker? I don't think so! On Valkenswaard Kenneth is about 4-5 seconds slower than Schanche in his non restricted RS2000, which was about a milisecond faster than his RS200. So if Hansen wouldn't have new tyres and ALS etc, the gap would probably even bigger about 6-7 seconds. I think the group B is the king in straightline speed and standing starts, Hansen's is best in handling and out of the corner throttle respons...

But that's not true. Kenneth Hansen drove 2.34 on Valkenswaard in '03 and '04. (trackrecord is 2.32.8 with the RS2000 and 2.33 with the RS200). With the new weight limits from 2005 he is obviously slower. And those times he didn't even had to push, which Schanche sure did at his fantastic record braking time in '95. Group B and unlimited Group A had an advantage at the start, but on all current tracks the straightline speed would be almost not noticable. Schanche drove a '97 car against Gollops '96 car in Lydden Hill in '97. Even on those long and steep straights Schanche could keep up.

[Fast man]

Originally Posted by DCS

Are omdern cars really quicker? I don't think so! On Valkenswaard Kenneth is about 4-5 seconds slower than Schanche in his non restricted RS2000, which was about a milisecond faster than his RS200. So if Hansen wouldn't have new tyres and ALS etc, the gap would probably even bigger about 6-7 seconds. I think the group B is the king in straightline speed and standing starts, Hansen's is best in handling and out of the corner throttle respons...

Completely right there!
But they had compleet slicks in that time, now they have to cut them. Stupid

[WJM]

Originally Posted by chunder

I also refuse to believe that any car is as quick off the line as an Xtrac Escort or a 205, they just flew off the box

I think you have a hard time telling whose faster if they are not side by side. The old cars looked faster because the car would veer when the throttle was applied. And also because of the noise, the tyre marks and because the differences between cars were bigger. If one car accelerates faster then the others, the first car looks much quicker than when all cars accelerate at the same speed.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by Fast man

Completely right there!
But they had compleet slicks in that time, now they have to cut them. Stupid

That is not a stupid rule, actually it was the only one that made real sense safety wise!

[DCS]

Originally Posted by WJM

But that's not true. Kenneth Hansen drove 2.34 on Valkenswaard in '03 and '04. (trackrecord is 2.32.8 with the RS2000 and 2.33 with the RS200). With the new weight limits from 2005 he is obviously slower. And those times he didn't even had to push, which Schanche sure did at his fantastic record braking time in '95. Group B and unlimited Group A had an advantage at the start, but on all current tracks the straightline speed would be almost not noticable. Schanche drove a '97 car against Gollops '96 car in Lydden Hill in '97. Even on those long and steep straights Schanche could keep up.

Ok I tought they were in the 2.36 or 2.37 these days... But it is really hard to find those times on the internet
But really my point was, it is now 20 years after the Group B start, and we are now approaching those days, while we should have been under 2.30 and I am sure this could be possible with less weight and less restriction combined with today's handling... Simple if Hansen is putting 2.34 and he is cornering quicker than ever possible, he looses more than just the 1.2 seconds on the straights, this means he is loosing on the straights to make up in the corners...

I think back then Schanche RS2000 and Hansen's ZX were in a class of it's own anyway... I am sure that with same regs the 306 could not have keep up...

[WJM]

Originally Posted by DCS

Ok I tought they were in the 2.36 or 2.37 these days... But it is really hard to find those times on the internet
But really my point was, it is now 20 years after the Group B start, and we are now approaching those days, while we should have been under 2.30 and I am sure this could be possible with less weight and less restriction combined with today's handling... Simple if Hansen is putting 2.34 and he is cornering quicker than ever possible, he looses more than just the 1.2 seconds on the straights, this means he is loosing on the straights to make up in the corners...

I think back then Schanche RS2000 and Hansen's ZX were in a class of it's own anyway... I am sure that with same regs the 306 could not have keep up...

The times you mention are average for most drivers, but with an easy heat they could do better. With the 1230kg's the cars will have trouble reaching for 2.34. The main problem nowadays is the weight I think, they only have to change that to make the cars really faster. The 205 weighed 910kgs with the same amount of bhp, that is the real difference. The 306 wasn't the best car of it's day, but Schanches '97 attempt wasn't that decent either.

[chunder]

I think the treadds in the tyres was a good idea but in some ways it took some of the craft away form the cutting of the tyres, plus it maes the rough areas cut up really really badly!

Somehting had to be done with the starts though and now it has all settled down i dont think there is a problem!

But you just dont see those old Avons rolling through the paddock with a cut on the outside and slick everywhere else!!

[lewis360]

i think the rally cars of today are nothing compared to the group B cars all i wish was that i was around when that era was in its heyday todays cars need to take a lesson fom the group B cars