[FIA GT] GT4 - The future...?

[wdave0]

The Aston that was running for a while was a GT4 car slightly modified to fit GS rules. It did not overwhelm. The current Porsche GT4 seems to fit fine too. Seems a very workable solution and better than the silhouette Z28s. My only problem with GT4 is the track day kit cars that do not represent US driving (KTM, Ginetta , SIN).

[Rcz]

Some people want GS to be kit cars, and others want GS to be homegrown cars I guess...

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Some people want GS to be kit cars, and others want GS to be homegrown cars I guess...

Certainly the kit cars will fatten the field, or even overrun the field as I suspect they are super cost effective but the original concept of the series has been modified street cars or clearly street car based. This has the effect of inviting manufacturer support plus spectator interest in a way kit cars do not.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mark0994

They are PROsport cars
The Dutch squad may expect fierce competition from PROsport Performance. The German team enter three Porsche Cayman PRO4 GT4 vehicles with race winner Peter Terting teaming up with Daniel Rymes from the Czech Republic. Jörg Viebahn, fifth in the standings last year, partners with Mike Hansch. Former DTM driver Carsten Struwe also competes with the new Porsche under the umbrella of the German team.

I think I got it figured out:

#18 and #19 were the 'old' ProSport home-builts, #20 was a new one. Cf. the different wing and the post-face lift headlights:

http://gt4series.com/teams-drivers/b...gallery/page/2

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by wdave0

My only problem with GT4 is the track day kit cars that do not represent US driving (KTM, Ginetta , SIN).

Originally Posted by Rcz

Some people want GS to be kit cars, and others want GS to be homegrown cars I guess...

GT4 allows homegrown cars to race. What part of this is so hard for you people to comprehend?!

FFS, There are already Camaros and Mustangs racing in the class over in Europe! And winning championships! Last year's GT4 European Series champions in the Pro class were driving a Camaro!

Okay, there are no Mustangs THIS year, but the point still stands - particularly with a double podium by the Camaros in race 2 of the opening weekend.

Just like with the claims about the Z28 ruining the GS class, you are worried about a NONEXISTANT problem.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

GT4 allows homegrown cars to race. What part of this is so hard for you people to comprehend?!

They really don't. There's a one car/one tuner rule... so your only chance at cobbling together a homebuilt is if no one else has done it for that specific model and the factory has no interest in doing so.

FFS, There are already Camaros and Mustangs racing in the class over in Europe! And winning championships! Last year's GT4 European Series champions in the Pro class were driving a Camaro!

No Mustangs. And those Camaros are older than the dirt. They are actually two of the Riley-built cars from 2008.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They really don't. There's a one car/one tuner rule... so your only chance at cobbling together a homebuilt is if no one else has done it for that specific model and the factory has no interest in doing so.

And...? News flash: Contrary to popular belief, that's pretty much how GS has been for the past decade. It's the way things are going to be no matter WHAT IMSA does.

No Mustangs. And those Camaros are older than the dirt. They are actually two of the Riley-built cars from 2008.

And...? Fact of the matter is, they're competitive. Which means bringing GT4 to GS would allow for such cars to continue in the class without issue.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

And...? News flash: Contrary to popular belief, that's pretty much how GS has been for the past decade. It's the way things are going to be no matter WHAT IMSA does.

The BMWs and Porsches were all home-builts... and those are precisely the teams that went away...

And...? Fact of the matter is, they're competitive. Which means bringing GT4 to GS would allow for such cars to continue in the class without issue.

They could have that much easier by pulling their collective head out of their ass and bringing the older GS Camaros and Mustangs back and giving them a favorable/competitive BoP.

Quoting John Vincent who should know a thing or two about Conti:

There are at least twenty existing M3's, Boss 302R's, AM's and 997's just sitting. Is IMSA telling us that those cars are no longer competitive and you need to buy a $240K Mustang or a $165K Cayman?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The BMWs and Porsches were all home-builts... and those are precisely the teams that went away...

Teams that were going away no matter what because the GS simply is not the place where such programs can support themselves. Hate to keep beating the dead horse, but those homebuilt cars are what the ST class is for.

They could have that much easier by pulling their collective head out of their ass and bringing the older GS Camaros and Mustangs back and giving them a favorable/competitive BoP.

It will not make a difference. The decline of interest in GS has been building since well before the issues you're complaining about.

Quoting John Vincent who should know a thing or two about Conti:

Cars nobody's going to run. They're not being abandoned just because they couldn't keep up, they're being abandoned because they're OUTDATED.

Professionally built cars have dominated GS for over a decade. Even when they weren't at the front of the field, the writing was on the wall the moment Roush-built Mustangs first debuted. The GS class decline is the result of it pretending to be something it's not.

GT4 is the future of classes like GS. It allows performance cars of all types to compete on a reasonably leveled playing field with minimal modification.

It is EXACTLY what GS needs. The attitude that GS needs to stick to this "homebrew" BS is what's hurting the class.

You might as well insist on replacing GS with TA2 - a good class, to be sure, but only in the series it was created for. And even it will need to evolve eventually, or it too will die out.

GS as it exists is outdated. It must be replaced, and GT4 is the perfect replacement for it.

[AJA]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Teams that were going away no matter what because the GS simply is not the place where such programs can support themselves. Hate to keep beating the dead horse, but those homebuilt cars are what the ST class is for.



It will not make a difference. The decline of interest in GS has been building since well before the issues you're complaining about.



Cars nobody's going to run. They're not being abandoned just because they couldn't keep up, they're being abandoned because they're OUTDATED.

Professionally built cars have dominated GS for over a decade. Even when they weren't at the front of the field, the writing was on the wall the moment Roush-built Mustangs first debuted. The GS class decline is the result of it pretending to be something it's not.

GT4 is the future of classes like GS. It allows performance cars of all types to compete on a reasonably leveled playing field with minimal modification.

It is EXACTLY what GS needs. The attitude that GS needs to stick to this "homebrew" BS is what's hurting the class.

You might as well insist on replacing GS with TA2 - a good class, to be sure, but only in the series it was created for. And even it will need to evolve eventually, or it too will die out.

GS as it exists is outdated. It must be replaced, and GT4 is the perfect replacement for it.

Just curious, who are you? I just want to understand your logic.

What cars were not team built? Turner, Fall-line, me(Phoenix(both Subaru and Mustang)), Rum-bum(Porsche #2, Deman built the first one, and their BMW was Fall-Line) were all built by the teams. CKS built their own Camaro SS, and partly built their Z28. Doran built their 370's. I'd say GS has been a homebrew class for a long time.

These cars builds fed teams, kept people employed and so forth, that otherwise would not be around because they can not afford to buy $250,000 of racecar that still needs work(and money) to go fast. Think of it this way, the team already has the labor, so why not use it, plus they know more about the cars.

If you watched the PWC Barber GTS race, you would see how much work the balance of the GT4(even between GT4 cars, let alone the "GTS" cars)cars need. It was pretty bad, and PWC knows they need to fix it and fast.

What happens on the next down turn in economy, and all these car companies cut their customer support programs?

and yes, the Z28 started the death spiral. From a guy who had a vote at the table during the conference call about to what to do with 2 races to go in 2014.

[AJA]

double post

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by AJA

Just curious, who are you? I just want to understand your logic.

Someone who's been learning a LOT about IMSA's internal workings from people on the inside as a result of his upcoming employment.

I'd say GS has been a homebrew class for a long time.

It has been. Unfortunately, by trying to underline that fact you missed the point: That time is passing. RAPIDLY. It's time to adapt or die.

Like I said, the writing's been on the wall since Roush started building Mustangs for the class.

These cars builds fed teams, kept people employed and so forth, that otherwise would not be around because they can not afford to buy $250,000 of racecar that still needs work(and money) to go fast.

That's the beauty of GT4: You don't NEED a $250grand car. You can still build a competitive Camaro, or Mustang.

If you watched the PWC Barber GTS race, you would see how much work the balance of the GT4(even between GT4 cars, let alone the "GTS" cars)cars need. It was pretty bad, and PWC knows they need to fix it and fast.

And yet the European GT4 series has little trouble with it. It's almost as if the problems in GTS are a series-specific issue, not a problem with the class in and of itself.

What happens on the next down turn in economy, and all these car companies cut their customer support programs?

Nothing. What you are consistently ignoring is that GT4 still enables competitive non-manufacturer entries. You think the Camaros that took the European title last year were factory-supported? Not even remotely.

and yes, the Z28 started the death spiral. From a guy who had a vote at the table during the conference call about to what to do with 2 races to go in 2014.

The Z28 started nothing. It is only making things happen faster. The Z28 is showing you exactly WHY the GS class needs to change: Nothing can stop GM from making a factory car that's just as fast - not even banning the Z28 will do it. They'll just build a car just as quick under the Camaro SS name.

Nothing's going to change until the class is either replaced, supplemented, or folks such as yourself decide to work harder. If the class as designed was so perfect, you'd either be able to build a better mousetrap to catch the mouse that's beaten you, or GM never would've been able to build such a supremely dominant machine.

You're blaming the Z28 for your OWN failures.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by AJA

double post

Sorry, I didn't mean that the GS ruleset should be GT4 but that GT4 cars could be selectively allowed.
I too believe in the home built class, it sure was fun back when it was realistic.

[jjvincent]

FF, at least AJ and I don't hide behind a screen name. We probably have more experience in the series than anyone I've seen post here because they are mostly anonymous. So, it's easy to call out peoples failures and how they are wrong in your opinion when you know that nobody will be able to hold you accountable.

Back to GT4. If any of you that have actually followed the class since 2007 would understand that it had great fanfare because manufacturers signed up to build cars. That lasted for a while and it stopped. Fields got thin because Ford, Riley and BMW quit making cars for the class. So it became the class where if you had enough money and a package, it became approved.

Then became a series where kit cars that nobody has ever heard of, all of a sudden were approved. KTM became a big entry because of that Stars of Tomorrow thing they got going on. Partnering up with the SRO was the best thing they did. It made the field bigger.

With the glut of the clapped out Maserati Cup cars that were on the market for 10 cents on the dollar, it all of a sudden became a GT4 spec too. More cars.

Want to build an M4? No problem. We will give you GT4 certification. We know that you can't call it a BMW and you won't build them for anyone else but it has a GT4 piece of paper to make it proper.

I want to build a Factory Five Daytona Cobra Coupe for GT4. It's a kit car just the other ones approved. It would be cool to see a 60's car out there with a carbon tub prototype and a Z28 (in the US we call that an HSR race). No reason why it couldn't be approved. Factory Five makes plenty of those kits for $20K (supposedly they have sold over 500 of them). All it takes is some time in a garage and a drive line from a 1990 Mustang 5.0. When I want to progress to GT3, it'll be a Tornado GT40 Kit car.

When the ST class becomes one we want to go after, let's just wait until the SRO makes a GT5 class. Then we can have a Lotus Super 7 Kit car running out there against a Civic.

I have nothing against GT4, I just don't like it when you pit high volume production cars against dedicated track cars that nobody knows what in the world they are. I looked on another thread and some guy mentioned they would like to see a SIN GTLM car. I have a feeling that if it happened, there would be a 100 page thread by every Corvette fan not wanting that because the SIN is not a regular street car like the Corvette.

I do racing in Europe and the US. Different cultures and different ways they go racing. Don't force the American version of racing down the Europeans throats and vice versa. All it does is ends up ticking off a bunch of people and they go away.

[AJA]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Someone who's been learning a LOT about IMSA's internal workings from people on the inside as a result of his upcoming employment.

Name? No need to hide, I'd be willing to have a beer at a race and talk about it. You going to work within CTSC? Come down to the SCCA Major at Mid-Ohio and find me, maybe I can give you some tips to get customers back.

Until that, I'll agree the class needs a re-boot, but not with the GT4 kit cars. But its not my job to make the rules, just to try to build the best mouse trap with-in them. I'm not big enough to have the rule book re-written.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by AJA

Name? No need to hide

Actually, there is. I'm connected to things that have not yet been publicly announced. I cannot risk them getting linked because people figured out who I'm linked to via identifying me.

And I am NOT going to throw away this opportunity.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

FF, at least AJ and I don't hide behind a screen name.

Oh, this crap again...

The fact that I've gotten my big opportunity while "hiding" behind this screenname says a TON about how much it matters.

It meant nothing when Phil Kaiser tried to use it against me on Racer, and it means nothing here.

[stevea968]

In UK, AMOC GT4 Cup looks to be the best value for money racing for GT4s. It was previously just for Astons, but with limited numbers of them built, they were never going to fill grids so this year it's opened up to other GT4 marques. First race on Brands GP circuit was won by a BMW M3 GT4, with Astons 2nd and 3rd. They race on British GT program, and next rounds are Oulton £550 in May then Silverstone GP £600. Normally 30 min quali + 50min or 45min race with mandatory 1 min pit stop so you can run 2 drivers. I don't race a GT4 but think this is worth a mention because it is such amazing value for money for GT4s, even if it is just for extra seat time.

[YZFrider]

Good points jjvincent. Back when GT4 started there was a separate (or sub class) called SuperSport just for the low volume kit cars like the KTM Xbow, Lotus 211, Peugeot 207 spyder etc. While BoP allows for wide variety, the problem potentially is that balancing two totally different cars can be a nightmare. Maybe time to start reclassifying or revamp the classes properly? Sportscar365 is reporting full adoption of GT4 regs for GTS next year.

On a side note. I think it's awesome to see track day cars or kit cars competing in races. America has plenty of these manufacturers. Though I admit more money has to go into making a track day car race durable and that may be a problem for some of the small companies

[joeb]

Looks like the Pirelli World Challenge has accepted GT4 as the future of GTS:

http://sportscar365.com/gt/world-cha...ations-in-gts/

[TF110]

The Ratel takeover has begun!

[jjvincent]

Nothing's going to change until the class is either replaced, supplemented, or folks such as yourself decide to work harder

This is good to know. IMSA officials will now determine if you have or not worked hard enough. I'm glad you know so much about the inner workings of every team. This will clear up things for everyone. Since you will be in charge of this (it's obvious you know which teams work hard and which ones don't) we can get a response from IMSA saying, "We would like to help out all of the teams running a certain type of car but we won't until I decide they have worked hard enough". We can call it a BoW.

You're blaming the Z28 for your OWN failures.

You need to rewrite that as, "The whole GS field is blaming the Z28 for their own failures". As you know (being in the biz) that every team not running a Z28 was complaining day and night about that car. Since you are the new BoW guy at IMSA, then the press release will be this, "All of the other teams are blaming their failures on the Z28 but it's really because they are not working hard enough".

It's good to know that we will have GT4 cars with a SRO BoP and an IMSA BoW. Hopefully we can add the driver ranking debacle into the mix.

[FormulaFox]

In racing, if you don't work hard enough to beat your opponents, you lose. That's what's going on here. Want to beat the Z28? Build or acquire a better car.

Simple as that.

Don't have the financial resources to do it? Leave before you go bankrupt. If the class is sustainable, someone will take your place.

[Rcz]

It's like if you put a GT1 vette in a GT3 series, and it won every race. Then suddenly GT3 implodes.

Welp, I guess it was everyone's else's fault, because they didn't have enough money. So fair.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

It's like if you put a GT1 vette in a GT3 series, and it won every race. Then suddenly GT3 implodes.

Welp, I guess it was everyone's else's fault, because they didn't have enough money. So fair.

That's a load of crap. You're comparing entering a car that's illegal under the class rules to a group building a car that complies with the specified class rules.

Like it or not, the Z28 is rules compliant. If you can't do as good or better, it's the fault of nobody but yourself.