[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

... he's certainly not noted for dirty driving in general.

He's definitely from the "I'd rather crash and take us both out than let you by" school of racing. Who on the grid would you say is a dirtier driver than Verstappen??

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

He's definitely from the "I'd rather crash and take us both out than let you by" school of racing. Who on the grid would you say is a dirtier driver than Verstappen??

I did list some other drivers above.

I get the mirth, but the point was he’s not noted for being dirtier than the others, and never has been.

[chillibowl]

Somewhere between the most aggressive driver out there and dirty for me but whatever he is, I suspect the culture of Merc would change into whatever is needed in order to accommodate a driver like Max.

They would be silly not to imo.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

He's accepted as one of the cleanest drivers in F1. It's one of his strengths.

Originally Posted by peebee2

But he's certainly not noted for dirty driving in general.

Originally Posted by peebee2

he’s not noted for being dirtier than the others, and never has been.

Consistency is the key.

The truth is that - even after his lack of real challenge in 2023, he is still regarded amongst fans as one of the dirtiest drivers on the grid (with Hamilton a close second).

I know there might be a different view from certain sections of the paddock - but it doesn't take much work to identify numerous examples of pundits and other drivers who will call him out on his 'poor behaviour' behind the wheel. Fans can be dismissed as not relevant, but that doesn't change the fact that the view is held by a significant proportion of F1 followers.

If the general consensus was that he is one of the cleanest drivers on the grid, then why as recent as the 2024 Autosport International Show was David Croft asked about Verstappen being a 'dirty driver'?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I get the mirth, but the point was he’s not noted for being dirtier than the others, and never has been.

I was under the impression that he's widely regarded as one of the dirtiest and most petulant drivers on the grid.

[Plantagenet]

I consider him aggressive, but then, given he's a multi WDC, he keeps company with some pretty aggressive drivers - certainly don't think he compares badly to Schumacher, Senna, Prost.

And the one who did always seemed to keep his nose clean (Hamilton) threw that all away when punting Verstappen off at 150mph at Stowe....truly awful given the potential consequences and for which i personally think the book she have been thrown at him.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I consider him aggressive, but then, given he's a multi WDC, he keeps company with some pretty aggressive drivers - certainly don't think he compares badly to Schumacher, Senna, Prost.

And the one who did always seemed to keep his nose clean (Hamilton) threw that all away when punting Verstappen off at 150mph at Stowe....truly awful given the potential consequences and for which i personally think the book she have been thrown at him.

Just because he’s a multi world champion doesn’t make it right. Despite Senna being my hero, I can’t forgive him for some of the stunts he did. Schumi I never liked much due to his awful tactics and getting away with it. And I’m not liking Max much either due to it. Frankly it’s a disgrace you list Prost with them, who’s only questionable driving was Japan 89, but I won’t go into that again

And while I’m not a fan of Hamilton, you really have exaggerated when you claim he punted Max. It was a misjudgement that went wrong, nothing more, which admittedly had large consequences and got punished for at the time. Max pushing Lewis off the track at Brazil was far worse than that

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I consider him aggressive, but then, given he's a multi WDC, he keeps company with some pretty aggressive drivers - certainly don't think he compares badly to Schumacher, Senna, Prost.

And the one who did always seemed to keep his nose clean (Hamilton) threw that all away when punting Verstappen off at 150mph at Stowe....truly awful given the potential consequences and for which i personally think the book she have been thrown at him.

Spot on. MV is not noted for being dirty, **** British media hubbub aside.

And I'm not anti-Lewis but that move you refer to was shocking, although I thought Max was shocking on the Wellington Straight before. Everybody who ever drove a winged car knows it is not possible to pass inside at Copse (not Stowe) - there was only one possible outcome and he got away with it.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And while I’m not a fan of Hamilton, you really have exaggerated when you claim he punted Max. It was a misjudgement that went wrong, nothing more, which admittedly had large consequences and got punished for at the time. Max pushing Lewis off the track at Brazil was far worse than that

Hopefully this particular can of worms doesn't need to be debated again.....

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Spot on. MV is not noted for being dirty, **** British media hubbub aside.

And I'm not anti-Lewis but that move you refer to was shocking, although I thought Max was shocking on the Wellington Straight before. Everybody who ever drove a winged car knows it is not possible to pass inside at Copse (not Stowe) - there was only one possible outcome and he got away with it.

If in doubt, blame the British media. We don’t need the media to tell us, we can see with our own eyes all the questionable/dirty/dangerous moves Max has made over the years. I don’t know why you bother, no one takes you seriously here, despite your claims of being a ‘paddock insider’

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Just because he’s a multi world champion doesn’t make it right. Despite Senna being my hero, I can’t forgive him for some of the stunts he did. Schumi I never liked much due to his awful tactics and getting away with it. And I’m not liking Max much either due to it. Frankly it’s a disgrace you list Prost with them, who’s only questionable driving was Japan 89, but I won’t go into that again

I wasn't justifying it or saying it is an excuse, it was merely putting it in context. And on the topic of Prost in 89 - who drove a competitor off the road to clinch the title - that in my book at least puts him on the same level as the others (who did the same).

My views on the Stowe incident are only my opinion. The Brazil incident was poor driving from Verstappen, fully agree, but it didn't have the potential to kill or serious injury Hamilton which is why that the Stowe incident was so bad (IMHO).

[Aysedasi]

Please.....

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Hopefully this particular can of worms doesn't need to be debated again.....

Uh, the horse is not quite dead yet

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I wasn't justifying it or saying it is an excuse, it was merely putting it in context. And on the topic of Prost in 89 - who drove a competitor off the road to clinch the title - that in my book at least puts him on the same level as the others (who did the same).

My views on the Stowe incident are only my opinion. The Brazil incident was poor driving from Verstappen, fully agree, but it didn't have the potential to kill or serious injury Hamilton which is why that the Stowe incident was so bad (IMHO).

Prost was only giving back to someone who had done to him and others. Otherwise the rest of his career was clean, no one apart from Senna had a bad word to say about his racecraft and etiquette

And why do you keep saying the incident between Hamilton and Verstappen was at Stowe? It was at Copse! Big difference

Anyway let’s move on…

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If Max does go to Merc, he will find he won’t be able to get away with his behaviour as much as he has done at RBR. Merc seem better at grounding drivers young and old

I think that this isn't accurate - as others have said in posts since, IF Max is the "dirtiest" driver out there, then Lewis is a close 2nd. Not really a fan of either of them (although I accept that both are very fast, top-shelf wacing dwivers) but if the contention is that MB is better at grounding drivers (ie, improving behaviour) then that clearly hasn't worked with Lewis & would be unlikely to be the case with Max (not that I see him going there).

What I do think MB is very good at is "circling the wagons" to defend its drivers or even attack other teams' drivers when there are incidents, or competition gets close.

[Skam85]

Russell is a dirtier driver than Max.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Russell is a dirtier driver than Max.

Absolutely. Bizarre some can't see it. And others.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Tourer

What I do think Red Bull is very good at is "circling the wagons" to defend its drivers or even attack other teams' drivers when there are incidents, or competition gets close.

That’s much more accurate

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Tourer

What I do think MB is very good at is "circling the wagons" to defend its drivers or even attack other teams' drivers when there are incidents, or competition gets close.

That's Merc to a tee!

In many ways it isn't popular, although they are certainly loyal in public to their drivers - more than any other team I can think of.

[BTCC frog]

One of the things that made 2021 so fascinating was the psychology of the dirty driving between Max and Lewis. Personally, I believe that both drivers liked to put their opponent in 'back off or we crash' situations, but the difference was that when Verstappen did it, Hamilton would back off, but when Hamilton did it, Verstappen would crash. In Brazil, for example, Verstappen totally missed the corner deliberately and would have taken out Hamilton, but he trusted that Hamilton would think it was better to back off and have another go. In Monza, Hamilton squeezed Verstappen into a situation where, if Verstappen stayed where he was, a crash was inevitable, and Verstappen chose to have that crash. Silverstone was the same principle but perhaps a bit more clumsy from Hamilton, in my opinion, although ultimately he benefitted from it massively, unlike Monza.

I don't think that Hamilton was a dirty driver at all when he was battling Nico Rosberg (Spain 2016 was the closest incident to a 50-50 I can ever think of, but all the other incidents seemed to be on Rosberg), or Sebastian Vettel (he was rightly praised massively for the way he drove in Monza 2018 that forced Vettel to make the mistake and spin, meanwhile Vettel had that Baku 2017 moment). But Max Verstappen came along and was quite dirty, and Hamilton changed his driving style to accommodate that. For me, Silverstone 2021 does have certain similarities with Suzuka 1989. I believe Keke Rosberg said, 'you can tell that Prost doesn't do this sort of thing very often, because he did it so badly.' The difference was that, although Hamilton did botch the move because he made it his fault, he actually massively benefitted from it, whereas Prost lost out because of the crash (until the FIA intervened over the whole chicane incident).

With Suzuka 1989, I think Prost knew that he had to stop Senna putting him in those 'back off or we crash' situations by choosing to crash one time, and was sure he wanted to choose that day to do it, but in the event, Senna's move was totally legitimate and Prost was wrong to turn in. Of course, it wasn't at all comparable to what happened one year later. The incident I find most fascinating is Adelaide 1992. I have probably mentioned it before, but I think that Nigel Mansell deliberately brake-tested Ayrton Senna to try to show him that he wasn't a pushover, and Senna saw this and chose to 'fail' the brake test to show Mansell that nobody plays games with Ayrton Senna.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That’s much more accurate

Nah - whilst clearly all teams are likely to defend their own drivers, Mercedes has elevated that approach almost to the art-form level.

[chillibowl]

for sure RB will go to the mattresses for Max as they did for Vettee before...but loyalty and RB has never extended to their 2nd seat imo. certainly not in the way it has for Merc.

Merc showed tremendous loyalty to Bottas, and in hindsight and given their choices for 2025, kind of looks like they may have stunted GR's development as a result?

had they promoted GR a year (maybe even 2) earlier and had him driving a car really capable of winning they might not be facing a prospect of an underwhelming 2025 lineup?

edit: maybe even sacrificed a WDC for LH by placing a bit too much emphasis on that year's WCC?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

had they promoted GR a year (maybe even 2) earlier and had him driving a car really capable of winning they might not be facing a prospect of an underwhelming 2025 lineup?

Alonso and Russell - is that still underwhelming?

I know some would argue Alonso is in the twilight of his career, and Russell still has some development to work on - but together they could be setting up the team for future success.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Alonso and Russell - is that still underwhelming?

I know some would argue Alonso is in the twilight of his career, and Russell still has some development to work on - but together they could be setting up the team for future success.

i would love Alonso there and have suggested as much earlier but i also i just read he is still their B plan...if its Ocon in the otehr seat then yes very underwhelming imo.

[Mike Harte]

When it comes to driving tactics, one incident that has always stuck in my mind when it comes to Hamilton although the details are quite sketchy to me now and it has always reminded me that Hamilton is not a totally blameless driver.

Whilst he was at McLaren with Button, during one of the races in Canada, Button was just in front of Hamilton as they passed the pits. Hamilton then dived down the inside expecting Button to yield, but he didn't do so, with the result that Hamilton ended up on the grass verge, colliding with an advertising board that was placed on the grass.

I can't remember what happened after that, whether Hamilton continued or not, but something tells me that he had to go into the pits for damage.