Should HF1 allow drivers not able to lap at a competitive pace?

[stuart thompson]

I wonder who would win a race between Judy Lyons in her F1 Surtees, and the Trabant?

[justracing]

I'm afraid that the lady's presence at these meetings is a source of continuing embarrassment for all not to mention an insult to the spectators and a downright dangerous mobile chicane. I regret to say that I have watched this pitiful spectacle many times at this meeting. For all that's holy, why? I hasten to add that I have no intention of insulting the lady but in the interests of decency it should not be allowed to continue.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by justracing

For all that's holy, why?

Possibly because the promoters are aware that there is a possibility that the Lyons' family may be disinclined to bring all their very exotic, as well as highly expensive to maintain and run, prized possessions to these meetings?

And might that not lead to the loss of possibly one of the best drivers in historic cars?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Possibly because the promoters are aware that there is a possibility that the Lyons' family may be disinclined to bring all their very exotic, as well as highly expensive to maintain and run, prized possessions to these meetings?
And might that not lead to the loss of possibly one of the best drivers in historic cars?

That.

[stuart thompson]

Couldn’t they convince her to drive in something slower where the closing speeds aren’t so ridiculously high?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

Couldn’t they convince her to drive in something slower where the closing speeds aren’t so ridiculously high?

Not sure who ‘They’ are, Stuart? If it’s family, then maybe Mum rules!

BTW, I understand your (and others) point, but in most historic racing driver grading doesn’t exist, and if you’re able to stump up the entry fee plus have an eligible car, then most organisers will take your money.....

[justracing]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Possibly because the promoters are aware that there is a possibility that the Lyons' family may be disinclined to bring all their very exotic, as well as highly expensive to maintain and run, prized possessions to these meetings?

And might that not lead to the loss of possibly one of the best drivers in historic cars?

It's my ball and your not playing with it. It would take a brave man

[Willmaz223]

Originally Posted by justracing

I'm afraid that the lady's presence at these meetings is a source of continuing embarrassment for all not to mention an insult to the spectators and a downright dangerous mobile chicane. I regret to say that I have watched this pitiful spectacle many times at this meeting. For all that's holy, why? I hasten to add that I have no intention of insulting the lady but in the interests of decency it should not be allowed to continue.

She was slower than the entire Pre 66 Touring grid.

The Trabant were about 30 s Slower.Only...

[The SpeCTator]

Originally Posted by justracing

I'm afraid that the lady's presence at these meetings is a source of continuing embarrassment for all not to mention an insult to the spectators and a downright dangerous mobile chicane. I regret to say that I have watched this pitiful spectacle many times at this meeting. For all that's holy, why? I hasten to add that I have no intention of insulting the lady but in the interests of decency it should not be allowed to continue.

On Saturday and Sunday there were 2 F1 races of 25 mins.
On Saturday and Sunday there were 2 F1 demos of 20 mins, which had just 2 cars, until 1 broke down!
Surely a sensible solution when everybody wins is to run the Surtees in the demos.
Ok you loose 5 minutes running time, but you don't have to stump up an entry fee!
Everyone should be safe and everyone should be happy.
Or maybe thats just too simple?

[midgetman]

I have to say this conversation has been going on for many years now and indeed MiniMM and I had it on Sunday. We came to the conclusion that this is amateur racing with very good drivers, they've all coped so far and know the situation going forwards.



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I have to say this conversation has been going on for many years now and indeed MiniMM and I had it on Sunday. We came to the conclusion that this is amateur racing with very good drivers, they've all coped so far and know the situation going forwards.

Yes it has, yes it is, and yes they have. Don't think we really need to debate at length again....

[chunder]

Lol, I love the old debate about her.

It is an FIA series, the fact she is anywhere near it is pathetic.

It is things like this, the old boys club and crap like that that put me right off historic racing.

I feel for the people who have to work on the car, the other drivers and everyone involved with the series, she is a complete and utter joke and should be banned from competing right away.

I don't give a toss if they take their cars with them, the series is better off without a joker being played every time they race, the woman has no respect for herself, other drivers, or the series she goes to the shops in.

[apriliadriver]

Before this thread gets completely out of hand, may I ask how many posters here on this topic have had any experience of driving a Historic F1 car ? A few I know here have some experience of historic racing cars in general.


I have not driven Historic F1, and I am keeping schtum about slow driving until I have. Sure, everyone loves to see a hotshoe in their favourite car, but speaking as one of the slower drivers on a historic grid, over 30+ years of racing historics, I have seen some very slow drivers, some novices and some scared of their cars, and providing you clock who they are and where they are, then a grid can accommodate them.


Until the MSA introduces a grid lap-time qualifying rule (pole +15% or whatever) then we should not grizzle. Some of the comments in previous posts are OTT. Here endeth pompous bit.

Nick

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by apriliadriver

Before this thread gets completely out of hand, may I ask how many posters here on this topic have had any experience of driving a Historic F1 car ? A few I know here have some experience of historic racing cars in general.

Until the MSA introduces a grid lap-time qualifying rule (pole +15% or whatever) then we should not grizzle. Some of the comments in previous posts are OTT. Here endeth pompous bit.

Nick

Agree with that second paragraph. This morning I asked an HF1 team boss what he/they thought about the subject. The answer was same.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chunder

Lol, I love the old debate about her.

It is an FIA series, the fact she is anywhere near it is pathetic.

It is things like this, the old boys club and crap like that that put me right off historic racing.

Maybe it might be worth looking at the FIA's description of a series, before passing comment on someone's entitlement to drive in the series.

'THIS CHAMPIONSHIP CELEBRATES FORMULA ONE HISTORY FROM 1966 TO 1985'
'an emotive category in which cars must run in their period livery, delivering a superb spectacle of sight and sound'
'Key to Masters' ethos is to provide as much track time as possible for drivers'
'Masters prides itself on customer service and value for money - just look at the events we deliver, our entry fee per minute and how much track time you get. Off-track, the Masters Drivers’ Club looks after you and your family and makes a Masters event more than just motor racing. We combine the circuits you want to go to with a fun social weekend for you and your Team.'

All of this should give a good indication that the focus of the event is on the drivers and enjoyment of their cars - not delivering a closely contested result for the spectators (not wanting to detract from the level of effort from competitors here). So if the event organisers are happy for her to take part, then all should be happy?

[Mike Harte]

Regardless of whether Judi Lyons drives quickly or not, I would far rather that the family allows it's collection of wonderful machinery to be seen on track in public than some other collectors who hide away their horde of historic cars in vast warehouses, and which never see the light of day again.

Sometimes owners like Mrs Lyons can never win the discussion. But, take for example Bernie Ecclestone who possibly owns the largest collection of historic F1 cars. Until a couple of years ago, he was, rightly in my mind, criticised for not permitting his cars to be seen in public. Thankfully, he had a change of heart fairly recently, and a few of his cars have been on track at some of the meetings.

But as I said a couple of days ago, we should be thanking people like the Lyons family for spending pretty large amounts of money to let these superb machines come out and play. And whilst Judi may languish at the back end of the race, her son Michael is one of the most exciting drivers of historics.

Thank you, the Lyons family and so many others (including a number of tenthers and some moderators here) who are kind enough to share their beautiful cars with us.

[geordiecriag101]

As a spectator, i don't really mind her just cruising round at the back, in fact I'm almost a bit jealous as she is doing sumthing i never will be able to do!! As long as the other teams / drivers / owners are ok with her being there then no problem. Of coarse it would be great to see a young hot shoe driver in the car throwing it around and power sliding like how it can be run but until that happens, no probs from me.

[chunder]

I like to see old cars driven properly, this happens rarely in top level historic events for the whole field. It does happen, but I have often been disappointed in various displays I have seen, not all again, but in comparison with other motorsport, there is a tendency in historics to allow very slow driver to be out there, something I cannot stand for my sins.

Yes I know and understand why.

That car is being driven around like a shopping car. It adds NOTHING, it is only there because the family are heavily involved and for some reason they or she either demand she races or she somehow thinks it is worthwhile doing it.

As others have said, fair enough allow it to be driven in demo's etc, but not in a race.

it demeans the whole series, makes it look like a mockery. This is an FIA championship for goodness sake.

But as is usually the case, people like me get shot down because we should all be delighted these cars are still able to be driven and we get to fawn over them like little school boys.

Have a word people, you are PAYING to get in for this, these are insanely rich people with money to burn, so much so a perfectly decent F1 car is driven around like this and we are all supposed to clap and be thankful.

And people wonder why fans turn their noses up at this sort of series.

[Mike Bell]

As I said many posts ago, this subject has been debated to death before. I’ll move all posts not related to the actual Masters event to a separate thread, where those with extremely strong opinions can voice voice them ad-nauseam, and others not interested can ignore them......

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chunder

This is an FIA championship for goodness sake.

Interesting that focus is being made on this being an FIA championship.

The FIA make a clear distinction in their categories between 'current' championships and historic. Compare the description they give to their events.

F1 - 'aims to place the world’s foremost single-seat racing series at the cutting edge of automotive technology development'

HF1 - 'Here, [the cars] are in their element. In front of the crowd, their excitement is palpable as they sense the wonder they inspire in generations both old and new. Naturally and unassumingly charming, they represent a celebration of variety'

I am struggling to see the connection between a championship being governed by the FIA, and the need for a certain selection criteria for drivers to enter a series.

What about it being an FIA championship do you feel makes Judi Lyons ineligible to take part? The only possible criteria I can find comes from the reason the FIA was formed - 'to bring coherent governance and safety to motor sport'.

Does Judi Lyons prevent the FIA from achieving this aim? - only if you feel she is dangerous. I am not qualified to make that judgement, so will leave that to the individuals who manage the meetings, and the respective Clerks of the Course.

'the FIA [...] not only promotes motor sport [...] As the governing body of motor sport, the FIA ensures that fair, capably regulated and above all safe events are conducted [...] the FIA’s passion for motor sport and its dedication to ensuring fair play and safety for all competitors are undiminished. [...] raw emotion must be backed up by calm control and it’s here that the FIA operates, regulating and adjudicating at hundreds of events in a huge variety of series each year. From providing regulatory expertise and an impartial sporting judicial system to the federation’s recent embrace of the World Anti-Doping Agency code to combat the use of drugs in sport, the FIA is the world arbiter for motor sport. [...]'


If Judi Lyons (or any driver) can be seen to be preventing the FIA from achieving its goals, then I would agree that they should be excluded from an event - but until then, I struggle to see how a case can be made effectively for exclusion, based on simply stating the organisation that sanctions the event.......

[snowen250]

Her car. Her money. Her choice.

Has she ever actually caused an accident? I don't think so, she obeys blue flags and just pootles round enjoying herself. Which is fair enough.

And we pay to go in because we get to see a whole days worth of racing for a modest outlay. One slower car in one race is hardly going to ruin that. Unless you are easily wound up and love a moan of course. Not that anyone here matches that description...

It's a historic series. It is for drivers of old F1 cars to bring them out, have a race and show them off. They are the ones paying thousands a year to keep them going. Is it not a touch entitled to not only expect them to do that but also tell them to go a bit quicker...?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by snowen250

Her car. Her money. Her choice.

Has she ever actually caused an accident? I don't think so, she obeys blue flags and just pootles round enjoying herself. Which is fair enough.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by snowen250

And we pay to go in because we get to see a whole days worth of racing for a modest outlay. One slower car in one race is hardly going to ruin that. Unless you are easily wound up and love a moan of course. Not that anyone here matches that description...

*looks around....* Nope nobody worth mentioning anyway.

Originally Posted by snowen250

It's a historic series. It is for drivers of old F1 cars to bring them out, have a race and show them off. They are the ones paying thousands a year to keep them going.

And that's the point, nobody pays them to race them, so who cares how quick they go?

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by chunder

I like to see old cars driven properly, this happens rarely in top level historic events for the whole field. It does happen, but I have often been disappointed in various displays I have seen, not all again, but in comparison with other motorsport, there is a tendency in historics to allow very slow driver to be out there, something I cannot stand for my sins.
Yes I know and understand why.
That car is being driven around like a shopping car. It adds NOTHING, it is only there because the family are heavily involved and for some reason they or she either demand she races or she somehow thinks it is worthwhile doing it.
As others have said, fair enough allow it to be driven in demo's etc, but not in a race.
it demeans the whole series, makes it look like a mockery. This is an FIA championship for goodness sake.
But as is usually the case, people like me get shot down because we should all be delighted these cars are still able to be driven and we get to fawn over them like little school boys.
Have a word people, you are PAYING to get in for this, these are insanely rich people with money to burn, so much so a perfectly decent F1 car is driven around like this and we are all supposed to clap and be thankful.
And people wonder why fans turn their noses up at this sort of series.

What an ill conceived rant. Too many statements to take issue with all but must take issue with the 'we are all supposed to clap and be thankful ' bit. Who the hell has said that on here? I think you have some deep seated hatred of those who have more than you. This is a forum for all views but statements such as that do nothing to help your argument. I know you are a long term frequent contributor here (and mostly well reasoned) but I can't understand this rant. You don't have to clap or fawn if you don't want to. Appreciate that which you like and ignore the bits you don't.
Judy Lyons is a courteous driver, obeys the blue flags and keeps well clear of those going past. Her presence puts one more car on the grid and I applaud her for doing so.

[Willmaz223]

This whole topic reminds of when I go karting.You have people who are very quick,do it regularly and you have some who are do karting for the first time.As a result you have massive differences in speed that means it can be borderline dangerous for the both sets of people.Obviously this is completely different to F1 but the same basics are still in it.

Personally if it was that much of a problem something would have been done about it.Its not a problem until something happens that makes it change.

[Thundersports]

I think the drivers in the series take the attitude that they know Judy is out there however I still think the speed differential is very frightening. There was an incident many years ago when an unfortunate Osella driver in Portugal tripped over her. She's a pleasant lady but I find it hard to understand what she gets from participating in those races.