Formula Libre - Do you know what it is?

[driftwood]

Libre means free so anythings goes
RACMSA banned the word Libre in 1990 so any races for cars have to be "open single seater" races upto 2.5 litre
BOSS is really the old libre format to get around the RACMSA stupid ruling
in the old days we had libre races and guys entered all manmer of formula cars and the odd f1 f5000 turned up
we also had the aurora series then later the hscc races for "F1" cars

also you cannot run open and closed wheel cars in the same race these days so baby bertha racing f5000 car are long gone !!

yes bring back Libre with bigger engines and let rover v8 march 86b f3000 cars run with f3000 f2 f3 type cars
speed differential is an issue and u either have to limit the cc level to over 1700 cc cars or inisist on percentage of pole time say 120%

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by driftwood

also you cannot run open and closed wheel cars in the same race these days so baby bertha racing f5000 car are long gone !!

I thought this as well until I saw the Caterham and Single Seater race at Anglesey last December.

[driftwood]

if the caterhams removed arches it would be ok

[Ian Sowman]

They didn't, but it did run with a split grid. I'm sure it was all cleared with the MSA steward.

[Alan Raine]

Libre racing how it used to be!!!

This is at Silverstone, at either the 8 clubs or Peterborough Motor Club meeting in the mid 80's. I'm in the Formula Ford with slicks on?



These races had F5000, F2's, F3's, Sports 2000's, Clubmans (even an Lister XJS) and a few people like me having fun.

They were actually quite enjoyable even though I had no chance of getting anywhere

One had to be alert in Practice, as the speed differential was at times 'interesting' for a slow guy like me!

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Libre racing how it used to be!!!

This is at Silverstone, at either the 8 clubs or Peterborough Motor Club meeting in the mid 80's. I'm in the Formula Ford with slicks on?



These races had F5000, F2's, F3's, Sports 2000's, Clubmans (even an Lister XJS) and a few people like me having fun.

They were actually quite enjoyable even though I had no chance of getting anywhere

One had to be alert in Practice, as the speed differential was at times 'interesting' for a slow guy like me!

That's magic!!! why can't we run these events now? surly safety has moved on and all that!!!

Whatever track makes the move on this will make a killing I'm sure!!

A

[graeme]

Originally Posted by driftwood

also you cannot run open and closed wheel cars in the same race these days so baby bertha racing f5000 car are long gone !!

Along with the Caterham vs single seater race (in the dark) at Anglesey last year, I've raced my Seven against (well, on the same track at the same time...) in Libre in Ireland (which may well be a different kettle of fish). Also there was an open wheel Mallock in the 8 Clubs last year and BARC SEC run Mallocks in their single seater series.

[driftwood]

yes running clubman or caterfield type car is ok if its open wheeled with single seaters as the wording is open wheel cars

in the old days a libre race would often be last minute entries form the racers of the day to get a 2nd race ie FF1600 clubmans and the specific atlantic f2f3 f5000 cars that came to do the libre event

there are a couple of tracks doing " libre " races but with so many formulas running the grids are not big as people have specific championships to do
Lydden semsec BARC SE have races but really these 2 clubs should get the races combined and get better grids
Croft tried libre events years ago and mondello is now getting it off the ground again with grids slowly increasing

HSCC derek bell trophey is essentially F libre for historic cars as is Euroboss for larger engine wheel size cars but we do have many guys who wouyld like to owne and drive f3000 type car with eiether the correct motor or street car based engine in
the older F3000 cars from 85-89 are cheap so for 12k ish u could have a rover v8 f3000 car running
how competitive it is is another argument but we do have 80-84 f2 and f3 cars not being used as well due to the prohibitive HSCC cut off dates they are not classified as historic race cars
the late 80`s saw good libre grids and a national championship with f1 f2 f3 f3000 f5000 cars running then the RACMSA killed it off

[andy97]

I have raced in the BARC-SEC "single seater" series at Stowe in a Formula Vauxhall against Mallock type clubman cars (complete with front cycle wings and enclosed rear bodywork) and with a Speads motorcycle engines sportscar (fully enclosed, Audi R8 style bodywork) as recently as last year. Worked OK there.

[COLIN STUBBS]

anyone remember that classic pic of gerry in baby bertha in a libre race towering above some single seaters?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

anyone remember that classic pic of gerry in baby bertha in a libre race towering above some single seaters?

Umm - See post 27 of this thread!

[Richard Young]

Umm.....If anybody is interested, I'm planning to run a 'Libre' double header (two races at £180.00) at Kirkistown on September 23 - I have a single race planned for July 29 also - and hope to attract some of the Mondello-based Formula Holdens too.
We run with a mixture of sports/racer (Jade, Radical etc) and single seaters, and there's plenty of room for more !
Regarding ride height of 40mm, I understand that, if the regs state that the race is for F.Libre "including cars complying with F3, F3000, F.Renault (etc) regulations" it should be OK.
Old Ropey has visited before, and there's a good selection of locally-owned machinery. It's just a matter of persuading them all to appear at the same time !
Anyway, if you're game....We are !

[ghinzani]

Good initiative Richard, fingers crossed it goes well!

[driftwood]

I suggest you post advert in AS mag and race car website to advise the mainland racers you have an event
race cars should be run the way they where designed to run and not jerked around with like 40 mm ride height that was a dum ass rumling made for the circuit owners due to the f1 cars with ti skids sparking away and making a groove in the track


i would not run my f3 or f3000 car at 40 mm ride height
so if yr having a libre event you had better get the wording written or you wil have a bun fight in the scrutineering bay cos some rac official has swallowed the rule book the night before and exerting his authority over common sense

[Bob Pearson]

Wasn't the 40mm ride height rule to keep out skirts rather than titanium skid plates? I agree with you, run them as designed and get the maximum from them!!

[driftwood]

no
it was the track owners moaning
skirts where banned in 82 so u cant run skirts
they use 40 mm ride hieught excuse of slowing the cars down !!
i wnat to know who do i sue when the car leave s the tarck as the designed aero and geometry package is failing to do its job and u crash the car

if u alter yr road car form its original design u invalidate any warranty insurance etc
there is no valid reason to alter the cars set up
if u want cars to run 400 mm ride height put that in tee championship regs so the car maker designs the car that way for ist aereo package floor diffuser suspension geometry tyre spec spring rates etc and they can spend £200k designing and developing the car before the general public get the car

then u get the morons saying GE cars must run flat bottomed in historic events
how STOOPID is that !!!

you need people to run their cars not push them, away or incur them in extra costs
bad enough we have this silly ruling on new seatbelts and extinguishers this yera another 400 quid every car owner has to find

[Richard Young]

Sadly for many, I suspect the only person you can sue if your car leaves the track is yourself !
After all, nobody asked you to exceed its capbilities (reduced though they may be) at the moment you lost it !
However I'm told that, if the regs are written correctly in the first place - and if the car complies with the relevant regulations for the stated formula - there should be no problems.
However, a 'derestricted' F3, 5.0 litre F3000, creative 'one-off' or similar could still find itself outside 'de law'.
I'ts highly likely that you're right. Circuit owners have always feared for their tracks, and as the manager of a circuit I can see why......After all, nobody who has to pay for tarmac actualy likes to see it being eroded unnecessarily.....But at the same time, as an (occasional) racer I hate the idea of cars being outlawed simply because of a rule which doesn't apply to all formulae everywhere, all the time.
We (Kirkistown) are therefore prepared to risk the abrasions !
The problem, as ever, is that, having found one way round the law, someone else will probably find a way to apply it again !
For now though, we're in business if anyone cares to come visit.......
And if you do, expect to find a pint waiting.........

[driftwood]

"The problem, as ever, is that, having found one way round the law, someone else will probably find a way to apply it again !"

yes thats the sort of thing Mosley spurts out and then some white collar worker in RACMSA who has never sat in a formula car let alone race 1 rubber stamps the concept

so to the 3 important points for the race
1 what deal are u offering to get the mainland cars over ie ferry deal start ££
2 what brand pint is it ?
i know when i go to mondello its black with a white head on it
3 whats the noise limit there 108d or can we run the mega

[rcarr]

My Dad used to run his Tiga Sports 2000 in Formula Ecosse at Knockhill and Ingliston in the mid-nineties with Mallocks, Ralts, FVL, FVJ, Marches, Formula Fords.

The 1st meeting at Croft (to gain its licence to run races) was in November 94 (I think) and it was very, very, very wet! Even worse than Knockhill in October! He remembers seeing a Formula Ford launch itself off a kerb and flew over the front of his nosecone!

Aaaaahhhh, the crazy days of Formula Libre!

I also remember, when I was a wee boy seeing all sorts of cars race in the Formula Libre race at Ingliston, Formula 1 McLarens against FF2000s and everything in between like Mallocks with the likes of John Fyda and Will Hoy etc.

[Pink Panther]

Formula Libre, great racing when it is at its best. Lydden Hill used to have a very strong championship, with some pretty exotic cars as well.

Clubmans type cars have always been popular and competative in Formula Libre. Reg has done Many races in the Gryphon Pink Panther over the years.

What races are there that will cater for Formula Libre / clubmans cars around right now with the excpetion of classic clubmans, and other cubmans championships. We do have the opertunity to race in the Dereck Bell HSCC races.

Would be interested in any Formula Libre races available this year.

Andy

[driftwood]

semsec lydden do sports gt events and if u remove the mudguards u can do the OPEN wheeled races with single seaters
same may be for the BARC SE events

[andy97]

The BARC-SEC single seater series definately caters for Clubmans type cars - I have raced against both K-Series and Classic Clubmans cars in this series.

[Fairoaks]

Hi folks !
It seems very difficult for Libre to make a comeback in the uk. When did the Open / Closed Wheel thing come in ?
Also - why do various single seaters and Radicals etc. run together as Formule Libre at Kirkistown ? Surely under UK MSA rules ?
Can anybody answer these questions ?

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Fairoaks

Hi folks !
It seems very difficult for Libre to make a comeback in the uk. When did the Open / Closed Wheel thing come in ?

Probably after many disasterous attempts to run saloons with single seaters. When mixed libre was tried at Mondello there were too many heart stopping moments when "low" single seaters were trying to get around the higher saloons.

Originally Posted by Fairoaks

Also - why do various single seaters and Radicals etc. run together as Formule Libre at Kirkistown ? Surely under UK MSA rules ?

These are more closely matched in terms of height so there's less of an issue with running them together. To me, a Radical (etc.) is really a single seater with a bit of bodywork!

You may remember there was a chassis in the South (Formula 5????) that had both open and closed bodywork available. The idea was that it would make it eligible for more classes. I think there's still one or two floating around in Irish Libre.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

You may remember there was a chassis in the South (Formula 5????) that had both open and closed bodywork available

I think the car in question was the Van Diemen Formula Ireland.