Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Casper]

I think you just agreed with me and for now says it all.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Nissan and Toyota all have two-door coupes for now at least.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes there are plenty of 2 and 4 door models!

The prestige mnftrs still make them for a reason!

Touring car racing has historically seen performance and/or up market models as well as shopping cars used by mnftrs to promote their brand. The big cars are still seen as aspirational and the shopping cars appeal to Joe Public.

Which ones are going to be used in SC and which manufacturer is going to finance the entry. You are living in dreamland, the car market is getting out of these types of cars but there are always the deniers who won't accept it at all. I think your use of historically sums it up....they used to but not for much longer. Trying to deny what is happening in the car market is like trying to move water with a pitch fork.

Just as an aside Jaguar are going all electric https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=39f3c6ec7174

[FIRE]

Still a shame the BTCC design (with some changes) apparently isn't an option.

[one five five]

Why are some comments advocating DTM should have adopted Supercars rules, but at the same time won’t hear of Supercars adopting anyone else’s rules but their own (ie... TA2 or NASCAR Gen7)

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Still a shame the BTCC design (with some changes) apparently isn't an option.

To be honest NGTC cars are not the most beautiful touring cars... and for Supercars I believe they'd be a bit too slow.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Matt K

To be honest NGTC cars are not the most beautiful touring cars... and for Supercars I believe they'd be a bit too slow.

If it was RWD-only you could turn the boost up or substitute the four-cylinder engines for naturally aspirated V8s. You could also replace the Infiniti Q50 and BMW 3 series four-door bodies with suitable two-door bodies (sadly, Infiniti is out of Australia so no beautiful Q60, but the BMW M4 would be an option).

Supercars' insistence for a silhouette spaceframe chassis is most curious... BTCC shows the benefits of using OEM bodyshells, OEM glass, OEM doors etc. It allows far more flexibility for different bodyshapes when the safety cage can be designed as required to fit inside the bodyshell (instead of the other way around)!

Take a real Subaru or BMW and bolt-up your control front and rear subframes, it all works quite well. The pushrod suspension of the BTCC front end is a little bit more sophisticated than the direct-actuated suspension of the ATCC too.




Here's the control BTCC rear-end for RWD cars:


Something designed along these lines, with the option for a category engine, would make it a lot straightforward for privateer ATCC teams to homologate a vehicle of their choice -- as they do to great success in the BTCC!

You won't be stuffing around with nonsense carbon bodywork, and faux headlights and the like... But racing cars that are actually (broadly speaking) what they look like they are, but with the parity from everyone being allowed a nice racing double-wishbone suspension and not needing to follow the road car pickup points.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

I'm not sure why other racing categories rules get brought up, it is clear Supercars have chosen a path forward which is RWD spaceframe 2 door coupes running V8s.

Walkinshaw Racing are trying to bring another brand into the sport, but as is the age old case $$$ are needed. Id love to see a european marquee join or even a toyota/ nissan. Heck i wanted KIA to join with their stinger.

Maybe the path forward for Supercars in the future is to allow teams to use a world engine (really a ford coyote etc) and a new marquee's bodywork. Would be much much cheaper to enter.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If it was RWD-only you could turn the boost up or substitute the four-cylinder engines for naturally aspirated V8s. You could also replace the Infiniti Q50 and BMW 3 series four-door bodies with suitable two-door bodies (sadly, Infiniti is out of Australia so no beautiful Q60, but the BMW M4 would be an option).

Supercars' insistence for a silhouette spaceframe chassis is most curious... BTCC shows the benefits of using OEM bodyshells, OEM glass, OEM doors etc. It allows far more flexibility for different bodyshapes when the safety cage can be designed as required to fit inside the bodyshell (instead of the other way around)!

Take a real Subaru or BMW and bolt-up your control front and rear subframes, it all works quite well. The pushrod suspension of the BTCC front end is a little bit more sophisticated than the direct-actuated suspension of the ATCC too.




Here's the control BTCC rear-end for RWD cars:


Something designed along these lines, with the option for a category engine, would make it a lot straightforward for privateer ATCC teams to homologate a vehicle of their choice -- as they do to great success in the BTCC!

You won't be stuffing around with nonsense carbon bodywork, and faux headlights and the like... But racing cars that are actually (broadly speaking) what they look like they are, but with the parity from everyone being allowed a nice racing double-wishbone suspension and not needing to follow the road car pickup points.

Yes, you've analysed it all very nicely, I don't have much to add to be honest, I mean I love the diversity in the BTCC, the cars are always great to watch (onboards are a good fun) and for me NGTC cars are way better than TCR.
But my point was that actually the NGTC kit is not the most beautiful (seems a bit too 'square' at times, not sure if you know what I mean) and Supercars are actually prettier when it comes to the shape (ok, forget about Mustang being lopsided a bit). Also, BTCC cars are not as fast as Supercars but as you said, there potentially could be a solution to make them more powerful.
Nevertheless, I don't think it is on agenda, when Gen2 appeared Supercars made some visits to Britain and where mesmerised by the variety of cars in BTCC (hence a possibility of different body styles in Gen 2) but that was about it really.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Still a shame the BTCC design (with some changes) apparently isn't an option.

N I H....

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt K

To be honest NGTC cars are not the most beautiful touring cars... and for Supercars I believe they'd be a bit too slow.

That's why I said: (with some changes).
Make it RWD, more power, a spec engine available.

And about looks. The current Mustang isn't a beauty either...

[crmalcolm]

NGTC cars can be as beautiful or ugly as the donor car.

Most of the 'boxy' look comes from the wheel arches to bring them out to the standard width - if you start with a wider base model the bodykit can be less dramatic.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

And to be fair the same can happen here, re the Mustang. There's a thousand ways to write the regs, but it don't matter one bit without answering a few basic questions about why:


1. To attract manufacturers who will spend $$ developing cars and funding teams?


2. To have a cool package that fans like, sod what the manufacturers want and rely on other corporate sponsorship?


And that's before you even get into if you think it's important to have a platform that matches the driveline layout of the car or not (and why you think that). The target should set the rules, not the other way around.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by FIRE

That's why I said: (with some changes).
Make it RWD, more power, a spec engine available.

And about looks. The current Mustang isn't a beauty either...

What like the BTCC infinity’s

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What like the BTCC infinity’s

The Infiniti Q60 is a very pretty car in coupe form and would have been a logical replacement for the Nissan Altima. Unforunately Infiniti gave up on selling cars in Australia.

[Casper]

To carry the pessimism a bit further but some may call it reality, if you were a manufacturer planning to leave IC engines behind and move to BEV would you be investing in further ICE based racing? I think we will see a drop off of manufacturer involvement over the next few years for motor sport world wide until BEV's become practical to race as we have known it which might be a good thing and allow teams who can't compete financially to enjoy more success.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Casper

To carry the pessimism a bit further but some may call it reality, if you were a manufacturer planning to leave IC engines behind and move to BEV would you be investing in further ICE based racing? I think we will see a drop off of manufacturer involvement over the next few years for motor sport world wide until BEV's become practical to race as we have known it which might be a good thing and allow teams who can't compete financially to enjoy more success.

I agree with you.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The Infiniti Q60 is a very pretty car in coupe form and would have been a logical replacement for the Nissan Altima. Unforunately Infiniti gave up on selling cars in Australia.

That would make a perfect Supercar but as you say, Infiniti has pulled out of Australia. Mind you, it's also disappeared from Europe so it'll soon be (if not already is) a bit irrelevant in the BTCC.

[bathurst77]

The infiniti is a looker
Given its similarity to the mustang shape. How hard would it to be to hang carbonfibre looks like that over the spec chassis, stick a chev donk (or the kelly brothers old altima engines) in the middle and call it .. well anything really Unfunity (for the kiwis)
What manufacturer is needed, its not there has to be a road car modified or road spec edition...

[Compromised]

I'm sorry, but timed pit stops?

Obviously achieving parity is hard, especially for a series low on dollars. Can we just do away with the red vs blue schtick and have ONE engine and ONE body type? No more parity controversy, substantially cheaper, best team/driver will win, manufacturers no longer need to be relyed upon etc.

Crate motor, make the body some beefed up falcon/commodore hybrid and let's get on with it

[Umai Naa]

I could get on board with that.

The whole DNA thing is rapidly diminishing. Move on, do whatever it takes to keep the teams afloat, and the show on the road.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I could get on board with that.

The whole DNA thing is rapidly diminishing. Move on, do whatever it takes to keep the teams afloat, and the show on the road.

I don't think they have got their heads around those facts, give them time it has only been about five years since the end of manufacturing was announced and a few less since it stopped. Surely someone realised what was going to happen or did we expect too much. The big problem is how to transition to a new series based on what will work now. I am beginning to think they have no idea of what to do next seeing the rug has been pulled out from underneath the whole thing and I doubt anyone else has either since no one runs multi class racing any longer.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I could get on board with that.

The whole DNA thing is rapidly diminishing. Move on, do whatever it takes to keep the teams afloat, and the show on the road.

Not very touring car though is it, or would you subscribe then to no longer calling them touring cars and this tenuous link to the ATCC can cease?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by one five five

Not very touring car though is it, or would you subscribe then to no longer calling them touring cars and this tenuous link to the ATCC can cease?

Touring Cars, why we even have the term is a bit of a mystery when it is not used anywhere else. Anyway it is a sad fact that touring cars are an endangered species and a new idea needs to be thought up in its place.

Motorsport if based on production vehicles will not continue as it was so we need to get used to that idea. Ford for instance has one remaining vehicle made in the US that might be termed a touring car, anyone like to forecast how long the current Mustang will last before it gets the chop? I think some sort of retro series might be a possibility but the interest in that will die as those who grew up and drove those cars are no longer with us. Why does no one see what is happening? Sand and heads spring to mind.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Casper

Touring Cars, why we even have the term is a bit of a mystery when it is not used anywhere else.

Well, that's just not true.
https://www.btcc.net/

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Casper

Touring Cars, why we even have the term is a bit of a mystery when it is not used anywhere else. Anyway it is a sad fact that touring cars are an endangered species and a new idea needs to be thought up in its place.

Motorsport if based on production vehicles will not continue as it was so we need to get used to that idea. Ford for instance has one remaining vehicle made in the US that might be termed a touring car, anyone like to forecast how long the current Mustang will last before it gets the chop? I think some sort of retro series might be a possibility but the interest in that will die as those who grew up and drove those cars are no longer with us. Why does no one see what is happening? Sand and heads spring to mind.

Now they are getting into the music industry it won't matter what sort of cars they race.

https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/battle-of-the-bands-competition-to-rock-out-townsville/