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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:25 (Ref:3914772)   #1251
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If I accept the argument that different tyre manufacturers meant different winners on a given weekend, I still have reservations that this is what is wanted after 2020.

Do we want a situation where a driver on the wrong tyres has no chance of victory?
Already we see constant claims of 'X' only one because they had the best car.
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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:39 (Ref:3914773)   #1252
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Do we want a situation where a driver on the wrong tyres has no chance of victory?
Yes. Because that means the team put together the best package. That is part of the sport.
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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:43 (Ref:3914775)   #1253
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If I accept the argument that different tyre manufacturers meant different winners on a given weekend, I still have reservations that this is what is wanted after 2020.

Do we want a situation where a driver on the wrong tyres has no chance of victory?
Already we see constant claims of 'X' only one because they had the best car.
My memory of the most recent tire wars is as you say. Fans didn't like it unless "their" team/driver was winning. IMHO, a tire war would just solve one problem and create another.

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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:49 (Ref:3914777)   #1254
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My memory of the most recent tire wars is as you say. Fans didn't like it unless "their" team/driver was winning. IMHO, a tire war would just solve one problem and create another.

Richard
I do find it a bit odd that the tyres are blamed for this when we've had Pirelli for the last 8 years and only 1 of those years we've had a battle between 2 teams for the title.
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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:51 (Ref:3914778)   #1255
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Yes. Because that means the team put together the best package. That is part of the sport.
As I remember it, it didn't work that way. The tires where not static so teams could adapt or design to a fixed tire. You picked a partner for the season, then that tire manufacturer would tailor the design over time to fit the needs/feedback of their primary partner. Everyone else just had to deal with whatever they got. If you had two tire manufacturers, there were two teams who benefited the most (i.e. Ferrari and Mercedes). If there was a significant disparity between the two providers... you just hoped you were on the winning side over the course of the season. If you were partnered with the bad one, you had a rough season.

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Old 29 Jun 2019, 13:53 (Ref:3914779)   #1256
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I do find it a bit odd that the tyres are blamed for this when we've had Pirelli for the last 8 years and only 1 of those years we've had a battle between 2 teams for the title.
Can you expand your line of thinking. I am not following.

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Old 29 Jun 2019, 14:08 (Ref:3914781)   #1257
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As I remember it, it didn't work that way. The tires where not static so teams could adapt or design to a fixed tire. You picked a partner for the season, then that tire manufacturer would tailor the design over time to fit the needs/feedback of their primary partner. Everyone else just had to deal with whatever they got. If you had two tire manufacturers, there were two teams who benefited the most (i.e. Ferrari and Mercedes). If there was a significant disparity between the two providers... you just hoped you were on the winning side over the course of the season. If you were partnered with the bad one, you had a rough season.

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It's not that black and white. Look at 2003, where Bridgestone developed the tyres around the Ferrari. McLaren, Renault and Williams were all on Michelin and regularly outscored the Ferrari that they had no right to be beating. Without a tyre war, Ferrari would've walked 2003.

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Can you expand your line of thinking. I am not following.

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Well the following statement was made in regards to a tyre war

- Do we want a situation where a driver on the wrong tyres has no chance of victory?

That unfairly places the blame of a team dominating on the tyres. We already have that situation without a tyre war, so I fail to see how it's a relevant statement.

And then we had the statement -

- My memory of the most recent tire wars is as you say. Fans didn't like it unless "their" team/driver was winning.

That also unfairly places the blame of a team dominating on the tyres. We again, already have that situation. So I fail to see how the tyres can be blamed for this.

Just look at what we have now. We've had a spec tyre for 8 years now. And only in one of those years have we had 2 teams battling for the title. Over 85% of the seasons since we moved to the Pirelli spec tyres have been dominated by single teams. So what negative effect did a tyre war really bring? It works in other series. If it doesn't work in F1 then they need to take a good hard look at why proven solutions in other series don't work for them. The solution isn't the problem.

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If I accept the argument that different tyre manufacturers meant different winners on a given weekend, I still have reservations that this is what is wanted after 2020.
That to me, is a madness statement. We have reservations that we want to see different winners?
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Old 29 Jun 2019, 15:55 (Ref:3914796)   #1258
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Just look at what we have now. We've had a spec tyre for 8 years now. And only in one of those years have we had 2 teams battling for the title. Over 85% of the seasons since we moved to the Pirelli spec tyres have been dominated by single teams. So what negative effect did a tyre war really bring? It works in other series. If it doesn't work in F1 then they need to take a good hard look at why proven solutions in other series don't work for them. The solution isn't the problem.
You have a number of points in your larger post. Just wanted to focus on this last one. While I am not a fan of tire wars, I also don't like the status quo. I think you phrase the problem as having two polar opposite solutions. Single or multiple providers. It's more complex than that.

What we have is a heavily controlled spec tire that is designed to be a lesser solution so as to add extra uncertainty to the race. Add in the requirements to change compound during the race. That is far from another option of a better tire with a wider operating window from a single provider. My complaints are with the restrictive design requirements given to Pirelli.

Tire wars CAN be exciting if the providers have performance parity. But, if they don't, they also can penalize large swaths of the field who are locked into the wrong partner.

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Old 1 Jul 2019, 22:59 (Ref:3915428)   #1259
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 01:42 (Ref:3915440)   #1260
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 05:57 (Ref:3915452)   #1261
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So much of this is fiddling round the edges - forget about nuances of tyre spec, about which nobody sane is remotely interested , have one set per race (except in case of force majeure - puncture, rain ) . Overtaking should be on track , not by pitstop algorithm .



And the last people to influence rules are current participants , all of whom are motivated by self interest . I couldn't care less what Mercedes say - they can walk away tomorrow (as they did in the 50s, not returning for decades ).



Ecclestone lost the plot years ago and has been an ageing embarrassment whose only motive has been personal greed and power -unless someone else can come up with a convincing argument why European races (you, know, where all te cars are made and most of the fans live ) are sacrificed for countries with zero interest in the sport and , in the case of Azerbaijan and Bahrain, highly suspect attitudes to press freedom and modern western values. But they pay a lot so nobody in F1 cares a flying * who they consort with.

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Old 2 Jul 2019, 07:40 (Ref:3915455)   #1262
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So much of this is fiddling round the edges - forget about nuances of tyre spec, about which nobody sane is remotely interested , have one set per race (except in case of force majeure - puncture, rain ) . Overtaking should be on track , not by pitstop algorithm .

And the last people to influence rules are current participants , all of whom are motivated by self interest . I couldn't care less what Mercedes say - they can walk away tomorrow (as they did in the 50s, not returning for decades ).

Ecclestone lost the plot years ago and has been an ageing embarrassment whose only motive has been personal greed and power -unless someone else can come up with a convincing argument why European races (you, know, where all te cars are made and most of the fans live ) are sacrificed for countries with zero interest in the sport and , in the case of Azerbaijan and Bahrain, highly suspect attitudes to press freedom and modern western values. But they pay a lot so nobody in F1 cares a flying * who they consort with.
Totally agree.

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Old 2 Jul 2019, 15:08 (Ref:3915498)   #1263
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It should be noted that the reason Mercedes left at the end of 1955 was due to fallout from Le Mans that year.

Unfortunately, the business climate is vastly different today, and for F1 to remain commercially viable now, it needs the money infusion from the manufacturers and other large corporate sponsors; you can't buy the media coverage or heavily promote the races over all the other "noise" out there without it.

It used to be that companies like Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, and Aston Martin had sales directly driven to a substantial degree by racing success. These days though, it's much more the case that the various major series need the manufacturers to drive their profile up more than the automakers necessarily need the racing cache.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 23:11 (Ref:3915578)   #1264
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We’ve gone so far down the wrong way in terms of regs that we can only hope most of them are reversed by 2021 in time for the rules. And hopefully a few more teams will be in it too
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 06:31 (Ref:3915607)   #1265
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It should be noted that the reason Mercedes left at the end of 1955 was due to fallout from Le Mans that year.

Unfortunately, the business climate is vastly different today, and for F1 to remain commercially viable now, it needs the money infusion from the manufacturers and other large corporate sponsors; you can't buy the media coverage or heavily promote the races over all the other "noise" out there without it.

It used to be that companies like Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, and Aston Martin had sales directly driven to a substantial degree by racing success. These days though, it's much more the case that the various major series need the manufacturers to drive their profile up more than the automakers necessarily need the racing cache.

Sorry but you are assuming F1 in future needs to be the merchandising and media brand with a sideline in crap cars it has become . It doesn't need to be that at all . We certainly don't need manufacturers - they are part of the problem , not the solution



And remember Ferrari were all about racing - the road cars just funded the habit. Aston Martin sales might have gone up by a few dozen after winning Le Mans in 1959( was it ?) but they sold very few cars anyway then. They sold far more when they stopped racing between 60s and recently ; ditto Maserati .
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 09:18 (Ref:3915631)   #1266
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No F1 isn't fixable...its been killed off by technology.
The only thing to do is scrap it and start over with a clean sheet of paper.
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 12:28 (Ref:3915672)   #1267
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No F1 isn't fixable...its been killed off by technology.
The only thing to do is scrap it and start over with a clean sheet of paper.
I'm not entirely sure several million people will want to watch sheets of paper flutter in the wind on TV though, Mr B
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 12:53 (Ref:3915677)   #1268
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I'm not entirely sure several million people will want to watch sheets of paper flutter in the wind on TV though, Mr B
You say that Greem but I bet Adrian Newey would soon have the best piece of paper...
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 13:04 (Ref:3915681)   #1269
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You say that Greem but I bet Adrian Newey would soon have the best piece of paper...
Mercedes paper: almost perfect but prone to the odd tantrum here and there
Ferrari paper: Rosso Corsa, known to spontaneously combust at the slightest slight
Red Bull paper: has pencil marks all over it
McLaren paper: whiter than every other team's paper, and infinitely squarer.
Renault paper: when they find it, Cyril will let us know
Toro Rosso paper: not the same as Red Bull paper, not at all, nooooooo. These aren't the pencil marks you're looking for.
Haas paper: unashamedly American, and very very similar to the paper that bike company started selling
Racing Point paper: Strolling around like it owns the place
Alfa Romeo paper: a bit confused, like it's just been thrown around in a very expensive wind tunnel
Williams paper: slightly dishevelled and not quite as good as it was when this paper racing started...
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 13:05 (Ref:3915682)   #1270
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Mercedes paper: almost perfect but prone to the odd tantrum here and there
Ferrari paper: Rosso Corsa, known to spontaneously combust at the slightest slight
Red Bull paper: has pencil marks all over it
McLaren paper: whiter than every other team's paper, and infinitely squarer.
Renault paper: when they find it, Cyril will let us know
Toro Rosso paper: not the same as Red Bull paper, not at all, nooooooo. These aren't the pencil marks you're looking for.
Haas paper: unashamedly American, and very very similar to the paper that bike company started selling
Racing Point paper: Strolling around like it owns the place
Alfa Romeo paper: a bit confused, like it's just been thrown around in a very expensive wind tunnel
Williams paper: slightly dishevelled and not quite as good as it was when this paper racing started...
Touche!
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 13:42 (Ref:3915689)   #1271
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Mercedes paper: almost perfect but prone to the odd tantrum here and there
Ferrari paper: Rosso Corsa, known to spontaneously combust at the slightest slight
Red Bull paper: has pencil marks all over it
McLaren paper: whiter than every other team's paper, and infinitely squarer.
Renault paper: when they find it, Cyril will let us know
Toro Rosso paper: not the same as Red Bull paper, not at all, nooooooo. These aren't the pencil marks you're looking for.
Haas paper: unashamedly American, and very very similar to the paper that bike company started selling
Racing Point paper: Strolling around like it owns the place
Alfa Romeo paper: a bit confused, like it's just been thrown around in a very expensive wind tunnel
Williams paper: slightly dishevelled and not quite as good as it was when this paper racing started...


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Old 3 Jul 2019, 15:20 (Ref:3915700)   #1272
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Coppice, I'll put it this way. We need the manufacturers in F1 for it to continue to have the capital and perceived prominence to be on TV in the first place. And if we can't continue to even watch it, well...

Sportscar racing has fallen into the doldrums more than once when it became largely the playground of privateers. Media coverage fell off, and along with it, the general knowledge that it even existed among less invested parts of the public. NASCAR, like F1, has only maintained its presence through manufacturer involvement. The Indy 500 itself was about the only household name in that discipline before the teams took it upon themselves to run the sport more as a commercial venture than a "club", as USAC had done up to that point. And of course, having recognized manufacturer names in the series, and promoting that, was essential to CART's rise. And we saw post-split how having Andretti, Unser, Patrick, and Penske wasn't enough to save open wheel from a crash compared to its former position.

And a lot of stuff is baked in, and isn't going to change if, first, there isn't a major change in the nature of not just FOM, but the FIA itself, which approves the technical and sporting regs. Furthermore though, it's going to require wider cultural changes, including more pushback against large corporations generally, as well as a change in perception, to where people feel they have a good enough lot such that they care more about elements of the actual sport that go further below the surface.
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 16:10 (Ref:3915706)   #1273
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We certainly don't need manufacturers - they are part of the problem , not the solution
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Originally Posted by Purist View Post
Coppice, I'll put it this way. We need the manufacturers in F1 for it to continue to have the capital and perceived prominence to be on TV in the first place. And if we can't continue to even watch it, well...
Not having manufactures would result in a lack of real or perceived media value as you say. This would hurt prospects of broadcast rights (as you say) and ultimately sponsorship money. The sport would be much smaller and VERY different than it is today.

Now... that could still be a good thing. Particularly for the "tear it down and rebuild it from scratch" folks. I am not sure if it's the right or wrong answer. I lean toward reducing the power of the manufactures be it influence or funding. Their power will never go away (unless they are 100% gone), but try to pull it back it a bit.

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Old 3 Jul 2019, 17:58 (Ref:3915729)   #1274
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The trouble is, if you tear down existing F1 to rebuild it, it will never again have its previous prominence as, for lack of a better term, an entertainment property, because that field is just so much more crowded with options vying for people's limited time and attentions than was the case in 1950, or even in 1980.

I can agree to some amount of pulling back power from the manufacturers; I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but in principle, I can get behind that.

I haven't yet been to Austin; we'd looked at going to one of the WEC races a few years ago, but by the weather forecast, it looked like the options were either to get boiled alive or drowned. So putting that one aside for now, the closest major road course is Road America, 750-800 miles away. You mentioned an F1 without manufacturers being much, much smaller; as a matter of personal valuation, it's hard to justify that travel distance for anything other than a major series like IndyCar, IMSA, you get the idea. (Heck, I'm not sure that that much smaller F1 would even have a US race.) Anyway, I hope that gives a better picture of where I'm sitting.
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 19:13 (Ref:3915741)   #1275
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Its interesting F1 is not on TV here anymore and it has vanished.They dont even show the highlights on the TV news.
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