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Old 9 Feb 2019, 09:43 (Ref:3882775)   #26
mstets
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mstets should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What about a salary cap on teams as a whole? Let them sort out their own priorities vis-Ã*-vis drivers, engineers, mechanics, paper shufflers, etc. Doubtless impractical and unenforceable.
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Old 9 Feb 2019, 17:45 (Ref:3882827)   #27
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would it be that hard to monitor?

between their HR and payroll departments, the govt agency they are remitting employee deductions to, insurance companies insuring employees, the benefits plan coordinators so employees can send their kids to the dentist, workplace health and safety agencies who are recording hours and whatnot, the various consulates who are issuing the travel documents for team members, etc etc all the way down to the chef who has a list of every employees dietary restrictions i would imagine there is an over abundance of information with which to use to monitor the number of staff, their salaries, and the tasks to which they have been assigned to.

yes it would require work to compile this info but it is a fairly straightforward task imo.

the issue remains the teams refuse to cooperate with FOM/FIA while promoting the notion that counting things is a really really hard thing to do.
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Old 9 Feb 2019, 20:46 (Ref:3882842)   #28
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would it be that hard to monitor?
As you point out, there are ways. Those who say it wouldn't work talk about the large manufactures being reluctant to "open their books". It's not like there would be an expectation to expose the entirety of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, etc. I expect the teams would (if they don't already) operate under a separate legal entity that encompasses just the F1 racing component. And it's my understanding that the proposal excludes the power unit part of the business. Which is probably the harder part to segregate.

Everyone likes to say that it just can't work. But the sport already does things like the work shutdown during the summer. That shows that controls on staffing resources can be implemented. I am a broken record on this, but the main reason everyone fight hard against this is because it is likely to work, or at least work well enough to accomplish the desired goals.

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Old 9 Feb 2019, 21:25 (Ref:3882851)   #29
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What about a salary cap on teams as a whole?
As every other sport that has tried it found out it just leads to wholesale skullduggery,cheating,lying and deceptions to get around it.

Who really cares how many on a team...just improve the damn racing.
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 01:48 (Ref:3882876)   #30
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As every other sport that has tried it found out it just leads to wholesale skullduggery,cheating,lying and deceptions to get around it.
And... yet it works. And of course there are efforts to subvert it.

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Who really cares how many on a team...just improve the damn racing.
“Just improve the damn racing”... No offense (I mean it)... But can I roll my eyes at that? You say that as if it is simple and with obvious solutions. I am talking “actual” actionable solutions, not high level concepts like “reduce aero grip”, etc.

To be fair, budget caps is also just a concept in which specific details would need to be worked out.

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Old 10 Feb 2019, 11:18 (Ref:3882921)   #31
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Yes I think the racing should be improved first. We can start by reducing downforce so we don't need anymore DRS
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 11:22 (Ref:3882922)   #32
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Yup.

Well that's solved that conundrum. What shall we talk about now?
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 12:56 (Ref:3882935)   #33
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What about a salary cap on teams as a whole? Let them sort out their own priorities vis-Ã*-vis drivers, engineers, mechanics, paper shufflers, etc. Doubtless impractical and unenforceable.
on a purely basic level i suspect there’d be gdpr (european data protection) issues around that one nowadays..?
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 13:28 (Ref:3882940)   #34
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Formulahistory should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Of course they are too big today. Otherwise there would be new teams joining F1.
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 19:11 (Ref:3883019)   #35
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Well lets see what happens this year, several teams are not in the best financial conditions and others are now little more than junior training teams so do not expect anything different this year to last years mercedes v ferrari fight with everyone else picking up scraps.
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 19:13 (Ref:3883021)   #36
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Would anybody really advocate that we go back to the days when teams of a couple of dozen people were the norm and at the end of the season six or seven mechanics were laid off?An extreme example perhaps,but in line with the question posed.
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 22:54 (Ref:3883059)   #37
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Oldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Will someone please define " good racing".
I suspect that if you surveyed a 1000 hardcore F1 enthusiasts you would come up with a 1000 different answers.
And if you then surveyed a 1000 casual fans you would only get 50 respondents, all different, and mostly incompatible with the wants of the hard core fans.
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Old 10 Feb 2019, 23:33 (Ref:3883067)   #38
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Perhaps a limit on the number of "back garage" personnel by that I mean the folks that sit at laptops monitoring all the cars functions. Not the "hands on car" mechanics/engineers.

If that means also imposing a limit on the amount of real time telemetery then so be it, I'm sure all the other measurements could be recorded onto a SSD and data dumped on returning back to the pits. That would then be uploaded back to base where those engineers would now be based and could review the data.
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Old 11 Feb 2019, 00:18 (Ref:3883074)   #39
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Telemetry banning would help. It would also give the driver more technical input knowing he would have to work out a problem himself
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Old 11 Feb 2019, 00:50 (Ref:3883079)   #40
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on a purely basic level i suspect there’d be gdpr (european data protection) issues around that one nowadays..?
I am not a GDPR expert, but data enterprise data is my day job and that includes impacts of GDPR even though I am US based. I don’t think there is anything in GDPR that would prevent a salary cap system. GDPR creates a ton of hoops to jump through (lots of extra cost), but in the end business goes on.

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Old 11 Feb 2019, 03:07 (Ref:3883097)   #41
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Well lets see what happens this year, several teams are not in the best financial conditions and others are now little more than junior training teams so do not expect anything different this year to last years mercedes v ferrari fight with everyone else picking up scraps.
Interesting.

Others have expressed the opinion that the the entire grid is financially sound.
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Old 11 Feb 2019, 04:33 (Ref:3883103)   #42
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Complete lack of sponsorship on most cars would say otherwise.
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Old 11 Feb 2019, 09:22 (Ref:3883147)   #43
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Ok I know I'm banging a drum that nobody wants to hear, but surely the question is "why are the teams so big?".

The answer is simple: Complexity. Make the vehicles less technically challenging and the teams won't need all those people. Simples.

Oh and as to the relevance of the current power units etc. I believe we've discovered that young people have no interest in the sport as a general rule so why try to pander to them?
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Old 11 Feb 2019, 11:41 (Ref:3883198)   #44
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The short answer is that the teams are so big because they feel a need to be that size.The rules have become so prescriptive that there are no easily found advantages and armies of people are seeking tiny gains in every aspect of the cars.The greater the number of people looking,the better the chance that a small gain may be identified.The increasingly sophisticated engineering requires yet more by way of assembly jigs,all of which have to be manufactured and inspected prior to use and then components must undergo an amount of durability testing because of the penalties for swapping major components.All of these aspects of building and running cars are carried out by humans.


Its a bit too late now to remove some of the restrictions and hope the creative minds can devise ways to create faster cars as the mindset has changed from innovating to refining ideas,many of which originate with the opposition.The other aspect of this change is that team management is now a process of meetings and committees rather than the proprietor sticking his head round the workshop door and saying "I've got an idea!".
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 19:51 (Ref:3883613)   #45
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Complete lack of sponsorship on most cars would say otherwise.
Sure, but those were the words of an ex-F1 team boss.

There are no Manors or HRTs on the grid.

All teams are either manufacturer owned or aligned to a manufacturer or have profitable parent companies.
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 20:35 (Ref:3883626)   #46
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Ok I know I'm banging a drum that nobody wants to hear, but surely the question is "why are the teams so big?".

The answer is simple: Complexity. Make the vehicles less technically challenging and the teams won't need all those people. Simples.
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The short answer is that the teams are so big because they feel a need to be that size.
For brevity I only quotes parts of the posts above. I broadly disagree with Peter and agree with P38. The only thing I might say differently than P38 is that they are as big as funding allows them to be.

For example... Let's say Renault was somehow more profitable than they are now. I am talking orders of magnitude larger. It's likely their budget would increase with no other changes to the technical specification. They would see that they have the cash and cash equals performance. Now that is not a universal truth (i.e. Toyota in F1), but it is true enough for most.

Another example... Let's say the technical specification was simplified (i.e. move to a more restricted ICE only power unit). If funding exists... and there is no reason it wouldn't. it will just be spent elsewhere. Such as toward aero or chassis development.

Now... when you are winning. Such as Mercedes is now. There will always be a struggle to maintain your budget, but the boogie man you toss out to the decision makers is that the competition is nipping at your heals, so you need the current budget (or even more) to maintain the lead. I think part of the reason Mercedes does not support something like the Ferrari/Haas/Alfa or RBR/TR scenarios is that it just may be hard for Mercedes to convince those above them to dig deeper to help fund subordinate teams given... they are already winning handily. So instead they advocate to stop those partnerships enjoyed by their competition instead of joining them.

There are examples of this working in other series. Specifically lower level series. I am vaguely aware of this one example that happened in the US and can't speak to all of the details, but it was SCCA D Sports Racing (DSR) in which Scott Tucker showed up with a truck load of money (that he went to jail for, but that is a different story) and dumped it into the development of super killer DSR car. Including buying the company that made the car he planned to use. DSR was roughly stable series. But he had the budget, so he used it and he wiped out the competition. I think it screwed stuff up so much that the SCCA had to make tweaks to the DSR rules to stop what was going on.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co..._what_happens/

His budget was based upon...

1. Where do I need to spend to win?
2. How much money can I find?

If #2 is equal to or larger than #1 then you are competitive. If you are organized and competent, then you win. If #2 is substantially less than #1 then you will never win other than by chance.

That is how F1 works. The above exists regardless of the rules and complexity. The upper limit for #2 is based upon things like the perceived prestige of the the series and other things such as how deep pockets are for self funding operations and world economics. So self funding operations like (Mercedes, Ferrari, etc.) have deep pockets and use them. And the prestige helps them bring on secondary sponsors plus convince the budget makers to keep the deep pockets open.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 12 Feb 2019 at 20:42.
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Old 12 Feb 2019, 20:59 (Ref:3883631)   #47
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Of course they are, you only have to go past a factory to see that, when they employ they don't do it one at a time, they swamp websites with multiple vacancies.

A team now is probably between 500 and 100 people, most factories don't employ that many.

Just so that two petulant boys can drive a car round saving tyres and fuel.

Great
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