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Old 18 Dec 2008, 19:02 (Ref:2357853)   #1
Neptune
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Lotus 20 / 22 / 20-22

Several months ago, one of the moderators suggested I ask a question of the Lotus 20 thread, but oh wait, there isn't one. Why don't you start one then, so here it is, started.

I've had a 20-22 for quite a while now. It was a Jim Russell 20, crashed sometime prior to the 1964 season, and rebuilt & upgraded onto a new replacement Arch Motors 22 frame by JRRDS. Like all Russell cars of the period, it went to MGM and became a faux F1 in the movie Grand Prix.

My car in particular became a Yamura. It and three other cars were sold into Florida after the movie debut and raced in SCCA FC class.

Just this autumn, I have acquired the remains of the 2nd Team Rosebud Lotus 20. I never realized how different the 20 & 22 were until I have them side by side.

In the top of the 20 frame, the area right in front of the dash bulkhead, the triangulation tubes are reversed to the 22. Just in front of that, there is a single diagonal brace in that section where the 22 has a "W" brace. Of course the dash bulkhead is only faced on the rear in the 20 and both front/ rear on the 22. The 20 has a battery box right behind the radiator, where the 22 houses an oil tank there.

The main frame longerons are 1in and 1-1/4 in on both cars, but although the 20 carries water through the larger tubes, there is no attempt to carry oil in the smaller ones.

On the 22 frame, there are tabs or plates welded to the bottom of the top longeron tubes and the top of the bottom tubes in the footbox area.These to hold the side panels of the footbox. There is no such arrangement on the 20, yet the 20 looks to have a similar footbox.

Question: How are these side footbox panels held in place on the 20?
Roger
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Old 21 Dec 2008, 17:22 (Ref:2359308)   #2
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Presumably your 20 chassis didn't need oil tubes running the length of the car because it didn't have an oil tank at the front?

Could be it was not dry sumped initially and might not even have had an oil cooler at the front (e.g. not combined with the water radiator).

IIRC the aluminium panels on the side of the footbox are pop rivetted to the vertical tubes & the body mounts (e.g. all but the water tubes which might leak!).

I vaguely remember other differences - there is some difference where the rear lower longeron joins the driver bulkhead and something like a water pipe exits in the same area on one version.

The lower rear (inboard) wishbone mountiing is wider on one than the other (e.g. one has shorter wishbones), and of course the upper rear damper mount is changed to accept the top link on a 22.

Peter
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 04:12 (Ref:2359517)   #3
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Peter,

I've looked and there are rivet holes in the body mounts, and the top longeron tube on the right and bottom left, the ones not carrying coolant. The radiator I got has the cooler in the bottom, but I'll bet it isn't original. I am assuming the front edge of the side panels rivet to the front panel the same as the 22. I see no evidence that the side panels were ever riveted to the verticle tubes.

The rear of the frame was modified extensively to accept a destroked /Alfa Guilietta engine and an unknown gearbox, so I don't know what the lower wishbones attached. I did get a pair of original rear wishbones, but I have not compared them to 22 items. They look the same, but I suppose they could be shorter.

This was the Rosebud 20 that was crashed at 1962 Sebring 12hr support race, number 12. It came back to Ohio after that race, was modified and continued to race in SCCA for a few years.

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Old 23 Feb 2010, 14:12 (Ref:2639074)   #4
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Lotus 22 - mystery chassis?

I have recently purchased Lotus 22 from the estate of the late Edward Finn.
The AM number AM-61 is stamped in the usual location at the top of the rear LH shock mount.

Interestingly, the removable rear crossmember / engine bay brace has AM-49 stamped on it! No chassis plate in evidence - apart from the drilled rivet-holes where it would have been.

The only information we are able to obtain is that he purchased it less engine and gearbox as a damaged car from a 'race-school' in 1975. There is correspondence dated 1978 between him and Lotus asking about spares etc. Obviously the rebuild was a long term project !

His wife informs us that he competed at Goodwood in it a long time ago. The lack of fire extinguisher, 2" 4-point harness, no foam-filled tank, no cut-off switch etc, etc, suggests it has not competed for a long time.

The colour is what could best be described as Lotus 'Pistachio' green, or to my eyes 'Kawasaki' green.

Any information / photos would be most welcome in my efforts to complete the identity of this car.
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Old 16 Mar 2010, 03:31 (Ref:2653195)   #5
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Pantah,

Typically Lotus 22s have their Arch Motors ID nos along the bottom of the dash bulkhead, not marked directly into the chassis, but rather on little steel tags that were then brazed onto the chassis. I believe the markings you are describing are more in line with the way Lotus 51 and later chassis were marked. What engine is in your new car?

Roger
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Old 15 Apr 2010, 11:36 (Ref:2673090)   #6
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Pantah,

Typically Lotus 22s have their Arch Motors ID nos along the bottom of the dash bulkhead, not marked directly into the chassis, but rather on little steel tags that were then brazed onto the chassis. I believe the markings you are describing are more in line with the way Lotus 51 and later chassis were marked. What engine is in your new car?

Roger
Thank you for your information. The chassis clearly isn't a 22, as we have established, but now having had opportunity to go through the large paperwork files which came with the car, correspondence exists between the former owner and Lotus dating back to 1978, in which both parties refer to the car as a type 31, and make reference to either a Cosworth MAE engine, or a Holbay R35 engine. I also know now he purchased it from JRRS at Snetterton.

Might I direct you to a new topic.....

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122024

Regards.
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Old 5 May 2010, 15:41 (Ref:2684851)   #7
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Lotus 20 question

I have heard that due to 'tax' reasons, a number of Lotus 20's were exported to the Australia, NZ and Canada, but without any form of chassis-plate etc?

Can anyone confirm if this is indeed correct?
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Old 10 Feb 2011, 09:54 (Ref:2828961)   #8
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Lotus 20 Chassis register ?

Is there any chassis register of all the Lotus 20s ?
Or, maybe too complicated/can of worms ?

Ralf
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Old 30 Jun 2011, 13:54 (Ref:2908600)   #9
ChrisChilcott
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Lotus 20 J 968

Duncan Rabagliati is the HLR registrar for Lotus 18, 20 and 22s. He knows the genuine, rebuilt and fake ones usually!

Why not start a list - there were 180 odd built.
Mine is 20 J 968 - Ex Silvio Moser/Aldo Pessina, sold April 1962

Photos taken 1962
Attached Thumbnails
620520ParmaPoggio3.jpg   620520ParmaPoggio2.jpg  

Last edited by ChrisChilcott; 30 Jun 2011 at 13:59. Reason: spelling!
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Old 30 Jun 2011, 13:55 (Ref:2908601)   #10
ChrisChilcott
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Lotus 20 J 968

Duncan Rabagliati is the HLR registrar for Lotus 18, 20 and 22s. He knows the genuine, rebuilt and fake ones usually!

Why not start a list - there were 180 odd built.
Mine is 20 J 968 - Ex Silvio Moser/Aldo Pessina, sold April 1962
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Old 30 Jun 2011, 14:00 (Ref:2908606)   #11
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Originally Posted by ChrisChilcott View Post
Duncan Rabgaliatti is the HLR registrar for Lotus 18, 20 and 22s. He knows the genuine, rebuilt and fake ones usually!

Why not start a list - there were 180 odd built.
Mine is 20 J 968 - Ex Silvio Moser/Aldo Pessina, sold April 1962
Duncan is well aware of this car, and had been in touch with its former owner across the Atlantic. My car is 20-J-909 - probably went straight to USA or Canada after leaving factory. As usual with cars of this type going to the USA, only recent history back as far as 1989. Before that nothing !
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Old 30 Jun 2011, 14:54 (Ref:2908649)   #12
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Would be a good idea to start a list !
My 20 is 20-J-892, bought new by Reg Armstrong in Ireland.
It was used by several drivers and then sold to Brian Cullen, who did run it as Libre (1500cc engine, bigger rear wheels) and crashed at Phoenix Park in 66 - the bigger engine and wheels probably causing to much stress for one of the driveshafts....
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Old 1 Jul 2011, 03:36 (Ref:2909032)   #13
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Pantah,

20-J-909 , sold new to Centro sud , engine number 61426 , colour Red , ex works 9-5-1961 .

R D P , 20-J-892 , sold new to Reg. Armstrong , engine number 61425 , ex works
11-5-1961.

Bryan Miller .
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Old 1 Jul 2011, 07:26 (Ref:2909094)   #14
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Thank you, Bryan.

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Old 1 Jul 2011, 09:47 (Ref:2909166)   #15
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Chassis/Frame number location

My car is still on its (mostly) original frame. I have never found the frame number and there seems to be a lot of doubt as to where these were actually stamped. Does anyone have a definative answer?
Also the frame number & chassis number, as far as I am aware, is not usually the same, however I have come across at least one 20 whose frame number was claiming the chassis number history (It actually had a Lotus 18 chassis plate)
Of course, in period, there was a lot of switching plates, particularly on cars supplied overseas, presumably for tax reasons or maybe to simplyfy the paperwork!
Any comments?

20-J-908 Ex Leo Geoghan now in Scotland with Steve Futter
22-J-49 Ex Leo Geoghan, now in Scotland with John Fyda/Iain Flett
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Old 1 Jul 2011, 09:59 (Ref:2909174)   #16
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Originally Posted by Neptune View Post
Several months ago, one of the moderators suggested I ask a question of the Lotus 20 thread, but oh wait, there isn't one. Why don't you start one then, so here it is, started.

I've had a 20-22 for quite a while now. It was a Jim Russell 20, crashed sometime prior to the 1964 season, and rebuilt & upgraded onto a new replacement Arch Motors 22 frame by JRRDS. Like all Russell cars of the period, it went to MGM and became a faux F1 in the movie Grand Prix.

My car in particular became a Yamura. It and three other cars were sold into Florida after the movie debut and raced in SCCA FC class.

Just this autumn, I have acquired the remains of the 2nd Team Rosebud Lotus 20. I never realized how different the 20 & 22 were until I have them side by side.

In the top of the 20 frame, the area right in front of the dash bulkhead, the triangulation tubes are reversed to the 22. Just in front of that, there is a single diagonal brace in that section where the 22 has a "W" brace. Of course the dash bulkhead is only faced on the rear in the 20 and both front/ rear on the 22. The 20 has a battery box right behind the radiator, where the 22 houses an oil tank there.

The main frame longerons are 1in and 1-1/4 in on both cars, but although the 20 carries water through the larger tubes, there is no attempt to carry oil in the smaller ones.

On the 22 frame, there are tabs or plates welded to the bottom of the top longeron tubes and the top of the bottom tubes in the footbox area.These to hold the side panels of the footbox. There is no such arrangement on the 20, yet the 20 looks to have a similar footbox.

Question: How are these side footbox panels held in place on the 20?
Roger
Re the 2nd Rosebud 20 - I thought both these were in Europe now. One belonging to Erwin Van Gelder & the other (which I nearly bought in 2005) was for sale by Mark Green/Steve Worrad in 2005. I think it was sold to a chap living in Monaco & competed in the Monaco Historic GP around 2006 or 2008. The Van Gelder car is now in 20/22 form. I understand Rosebud also had a 22 as well as the two 20s. I dont know the chassis numbers for the two 20s but could find out.
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Old 2 Jul 2011, 07:06 (Ref:2909733)   #17
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Gents ,

In regard to frame numbers ,

I owned / rescued 20-J-965 some 30 years ago , that was a very strange item, the car was sold new to Geoghegan's in Sydney as Lotus agents having just taken over from Derek Jolly of South Australia .
20-J-965 , agent Geoghegan , eng. no. 762301 , gearbox , H 3868092 , Weber 40DCOE2 numbers 10988 and 11081 , colour black , ex works 9-3-1962
I spoke to Leo Geoghegan about the car which he well remembered due to the fact he was already running his 22-J-49 and in to the car yard came a Yank and wished to purchase a Lotus 20 not even a 22 , Leo told me this was pennies from heaven as '' they were dying in the bum '' with this last unsold Lotus 20 , the purchaser was Ken Milburn , an American , that was his assumed name as his correct name was Kent Price and his father was very big in the USA political system and so as to be able to race he came to Australia and ran under the assumed name as racing was apparently a no no
in the family.
When I rescued the car circa 1978 and stripped it down I found the following
stamped into the flat vertical plate [ engine side] that connects horizontal and diagonal tubes behind the seat back XX LC 1 .
I suspect this car is either the jig car or prototype and in the best tradition of Lotus , March etc. probably lay around after doing it's original job at Lotus Components and late in the piece when an order came in was given a quick refresh and sold to poor old unsuspecting Aussie Agents as a brand new car.

I have looked at other Lotus 20s and have never sighted any frame numbers.

Duncan and I appear to be the only people with the records , I have records of 119 Lotus 20 s , which more accords with Doug Nye's Lotus book which calls out 118 off than the suggested 180 off earlier in this thread.

Bryan Miller.
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Old 2 Jul 2011, 07:24 (Ref:2909737)   #18
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Pantah,

To answer your question re chassis plates , all the cars that came in in 1961/2 carried chassis plates as per sales list to either Derek Jolly or later the Geoghegans , two are here that do not have plates , both these were bought in by the late Frank Gardner , Frank told me years ago that he built them both up for Jim Russell at the '' Downham common market '' for JRRDS , which will mean more to you English folks than I , and at season end he purchased and bought them over here to sell to pay his way.

Bryan.
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Old 2 Jul 2011, 13:50 (Ref:2913910)   #19
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Rosebud 22

Chris,

In personal emails to Erwin, his car carries chassis number 22 J 001, but he has always referred to the car as a 20/22. I had asked him for some more detailed photos years ago, but they never arrived. I think he considered the first 22 as being a modified 20, and I always wondered if the car had a vertical engine and other carry-overs from the previous model.

All three of Rosebud's cars ran the support, semi-pro FJ races at Daytona and Sebring in February and March 1962. The Daytona race was won by the 22 and Sebring was won by Pat Pigot in one of the 20s. The other 20 was crashed by Chuck Parsons late in the race. I have a couple of period photos, one showing the three cars before the Sebring race together on the concrete surface at Sebring and another showing my car damaged from the accident with Sebring barracks in the background. Earlier this year, a friend who was on the Healey team at Sebring in the early 60s sent me a video showing my works Sprite at Sebring and LeMans and also the Lotus 20 crashed in the same location as the still photo I have.

The team Rosebud cars all had 1-1/2" diameter tube rollbars, distinctive from the normal 1" diam on most 20s and 22s. My 20 chassis still has that roll-bar in place, and it goes all the way down to the bottom of the chassis. It is in terrible shape and will have to be replaced, along with some other tubes, some from accident damage, others from the modifications inflicted to allow fitting of a destroked Alfa motor in the mid-60s.

Edwin Cromwell bought the remains of the Parsons Rosebud 20 after Sebring and brought it back to Dayton Ohio. He repaired it and raced it and modified it to race in SCCa's FC class for unlimited 1100cc cars, by fitting an 1100cc Alfa Romeo engine. His next step was to abandon the Lotus chassis and build his own. Eventually, he sold that car complete and the 20 chassis was sold as parts. I have spoken to Edwin several times, but I have not been able to actually meet with him, only 70 miles from my home. The continual ownership of the chassis is known, going to another Dayton man, who sold it with a 21 project in the mid-80s to Atlanta. A 2nd Atlanta owner moved the chassis to Iowa several years later and I bought it from him in 2008.

You mention you could find the chassis numbers for the 2 Rosebud 20s. I have supposed the cars were bought from one of the 2 Lotus distributors at the time, either Jay Chamberlain or Sy Kabac in New York. Seems like I have seen a reference to an 18 as being the car traded in for the purchase of one of the 20s and I believe this was to Chamberlain.

Any help you could give in identifying my car would be greatly appreciated.

Roger
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Old 2 Jul 2011, 23:27 (Ref:2914086)   #20
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Roger,

Jay Chamberlain's name does not appear anywhere on the sales sheets , the USA cars seem either to go as you say to Cy Kabach or a lot went to Briggs Enterprises , whether that was a trading name of Chamberlain's or not you would know better than I.
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Old 3 Jul 2011, 13:44 (Ref:2917392)   #21
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Probably Briggs Cunningham, who was also an early Lotus supporter. Briggs had one of the first Elevens.

Bryan, Glad to see you back on this forum. It seemed for a while that the forum had lost its support.

Roger
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Old 4 Jul 2011, 00:11 (Ref:2917694)   #22
Bryan Miller
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Going through old handwritten notes of mine re another car here , 20-J-960 , the then owner advised his car carried stamped letters similar to my ex 20-J-965 in the same location , stupidly I didn't record the numbers , so that's at least two cars here with frame ??? numbers , those numbers will never align with a chassis number.
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Old 8 Jul 2011, 14:49 (Ref:2923693)   #23
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Originally Posted by Neptune View Post
Chris,

In personal emails to Erwin, his car carries chassis number 22 J 001, but he has always referred to the car as a 20/22. I had asked him for some more detailed photos years ago, but they never arrived. I think he considered the first 22 as being a modified 20, and I always wondered if the car had a vertical engine and other carry-overs from the previous model.

All three of Rosebud's cars ran the support, semi-pro FJ races at Daytona and Sebring in February and March 1962. The Daytona race was won by the 22 and Sebring was won by Pat Pigot in one of the 20s. The other 20 was crashed by Chuck Parsons late in the race. I have a couple of period photos, one showing the three cars before the Sebring race together on the concrete surface at Sebring and another showing my car damaged from the accident with Sebring barracks in the background. Earlier this year, a friend who was on the Healey team at Sebring in the early 60s sent me a video showing my works Sprite at Sebring and LeMans and also the Lotus 20 crashed in the same location as the still photo I have.

The team Rosebud cars all had 1-1/2" diameter tube rollbars, distinctive from the normal 1" diam on most 20s and 22s. My 20 chassis still has that roll-bar in place, and it goes all the way down to the bottom of the chassis. It is in terrible shape and will have to be replaced, along with some other tubes, some from accident damage, others from the modifications inflicted to allow fitting of a destroked Alfa motor in the mid-60s.

Edwin Cromwell bought the remains of the Parsons Rosebud 20 after Sebring and brought it back to Dayton Ohio. He repaired it and raced it and modified it to race in SCCa's FC class for unlimited 1100cc cars, by fitting an 1100cc Alfa Romeo engine. His next step was to abandon the Lotus chassis and build his own. Eventually, he sold that car complete and the 20 chassis was sold as parts. I have spoken to Edwin several times, but I have not been able to actually meet with him, only 70 miles from my home. The continual ownership of the chassis is known, going to another Dayton man, who sold it with a 21 project in the mid-80s to Atlanta. A 2nd Atlanta owner moved the chassis to Iowa several years later and I bought it from him in 2008.

You mention you could find the chassis numbers for the 2 Rosebud 20s. I have supposed the cars were bought from one of the 2 Lotus distributors at the time, either Jay Chamberlain or Sy Kabac in New York. Seems like I have seen a reference to an 18 as being the car traded in for the purchase of one of the 20s and I believe this was to Chamberlain.

Any help you could give in identifying my car would be greatly appreciated.

Roger
Roger,

Details of Erwins car on following link. The engine is still vertical, but otherwise it is in 22 form – 13” rear wheels, outboard discs, revised top link on rear suspension etc.

http://www.classic-auctions.com/Auct...or-32694.aspx#

From the above link the history is:-

...... the chassis plate was that of a 22, which the car had worn since at least 1982, when the Lotus was sold by California-based classic car dealer Ron Cameron of California Sports Cars to West Coast lawyer Chris Gruys.

It seems that, though he never raced it during his tenure, Gruys did have the car restored before later selling it to Richard Santucci & Son of New Jersey in 1995.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The car was unsold at the auction and Erwin was competing with it at Dijon a couple of weeks ago. It (And Erwin) is very quick!.
I'll look through my notes & try to find the chassis no of the other Rosebud 20 I saw in 2005.
Presumably Erwin's car is not the ex Rosebud 22 though?

Chris
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Old 9 Jul 2011, 12:15 (Ref:2924119)   #24
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Rosebud 20

The 20 reputed to be ex Rosebud I nearly bought back in 2004 was chassis 20-J-927. According to DCPR it was sold new to the USA

Ref Erwin Van Gelders 20/22 see the photos from the link I posted earlier. It looks like a 22 frame judging by the arrangement of the top cross bracing which as Roger says, is reversed from the arrangement on the 20.


Incidently my car 20-J-968 is reputed to be a 20B. It was the penultimate chassis built and originally had disc brakes on the front (I still have these). I think a few 20Bs had 1.5 litre ford engines & were used as a poor mans GP car in period or for hill climbing?
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Old 10 Oct 2011, 10:43 (Ref:2968573)   #25
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Pantah,

20-J-909 , sold new to Centro sud , engine number 61426 , colour Red , ex works 9-5-1961 .

R D P , 20-J-892 , sold new to Reg. Armstrong , engine number 61425 , ex works
11-5-1961.

Bryan Miller .
Would anyone know any history of the Centro-Sud car 20-J-909 (and I assume they had more than one Lotus 20 in period). I have records showing various Centro Sud Lots 20's being driven by several drivers including one Lorenzo Bandini none the less!
I have been told by the previous owner that the car was taken from Italy to the USA in the late 60's / early 70's by Lyle Heck, then sold on to a few US owners until it reached Joe Mirabille, then to myself.
Curiously, it lacks the flat strut / bracket behind the driver seat in front of the engine where a frame number would be stamped. I was told the car may have had a 1500cc crossflow at one point which can necessitate removal of that bracket / strut.
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