[Official] Qatar Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 22

[wnut]

Another video on the Mercedes wing flex, and performance in relation to the whole field. RBR's performance to dropped off and Mercedes' improved dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVR7u48De2U

The witness marks on the the rear wing end plates of the Mercedes' seems to be a pretty damning indication that the lower plane is flexing.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.

The flags are king. The other are supplemental. Removing those will remove a safety aid for the drivers and track workers. It would be a backwards step.

My car tells me the speed limit on a road. That is useful and a safety feature for me, but I know it is the actual signs on the road that define it and still observe those. If I only relied on the car that would make me an idiot and if I got caught speeding, or worse, it would be my fault. What my car told me would not be an excuse.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.

There are a few problems with making the lights 'primary'. Including:

The number of light panels does not equate to the number of marshal posts. As an example from this last weekend (attached image) - an incident on the exit of T16 may see yellow flags at marshal posts 16.3 and 16.5. The post at 16.2 may still be green, and so light panel 19 would also be green. The drivers have to observe the flags at 16.3 and 16.5, despite not passing a light panel.

Marshal's posts can also display multiple flags simultaneously. There has been discussion in the Marshal's section, including here - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...73&postcount=6 - about using multiple flags simultaneously. 'The problem of waving multiple flags by lights is one I hadn't previously thought of, but it's a situation that does crop up often. Red and yellow, white and yellow, white and red all crop up.'

[wnut]

Thanks CR. Guess the light boxes need to get an upgrade and an increase in their number.

Woolley's post in the thread you referenced seems to cover the visibility of the flags.

"It makes you realise how efficient flags are, and how difficult it is to adequately replace them. The only real problem with flags is the distance the person waving them is from the circuit and how poorly sited some of the posts are." Woolley

The real problem would appear to be that the drivers are not seeing the flags, it is difficult to believe that with the penalties they are subject to for ignoring the flags that they would not respond to a flag they see correctly.

The in car systems would also seem to be a good answer to the problems - when they work, there needs to be; without blaming anybody; a better system put in place to coordinate the three systems - flags, light boxes and dash displays. The violations would appear not to be deliberate but a systems failure.

(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The flags are king. The other are supplemental. Removing those will remove a safety aid for the drivers and track workers. It would be a backwards step.

My car tells me the speed limit on a road. That is useful and a safety feature for me, but I know it is the actual signs on the road that define it and still observe those. If I only relied on the car that would make me an idiot and if I got caught speeding, or worse, it would be my fault. What my car told me would not be an excuse.

If the road signs contradict one another however, you may have an excuse for not obeying one of them.
I am not trying to apportion blame, or make excuses, just trying to fix a system that seems to be producing contradictory messages.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

The in car systems would also seem to be a good answer to the problems - when they work, there needs to be; without blaming anybody; a better system put in place to coordinate the three systems - flags, light boxes and dash displays. The violations would appear not to be deliberate but a systems failure.

(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )

I understand that - and whilst I agree with the intent behind your post, I don't think systems failure can be accepted as a defence.

A simpler (I know I have advocated for progression) would be to just use flags. I guarantee that drivers would pay more attention to them then, rather than complacency.
But - that horse has bolted and light boards are becoming mandatory fixed at all Grade 1 circuits from next year. So as you say, if complacency does exist, and safety is a priority - the complacency needs to be mitigated to reduce the risk.
Two ways - harsher penalties for not adhering to flags, or light panels at each marshal post and a more robust system for use.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

If the road signs contradict one another however, you may have an excuse for not obeying one of them.
I am not trying to apportion blame, or make excuses, just trying to fix a system that seems to be producing contradictory messages.

I think that situation is fairly simple though. If you receive contradictory road signs, you take the safer of the two options.

Likewise with the flag vs light panel vs in-car system. If there is a contradiction, take the safer of the options.

e.g. - if there was a marshal's post that was waving a blue flag, a light panel flashing yellow and your in-car system was reporting 'green' - what action should a driver take? I would put it that the driver has to observe the safest option (assume they are passing a yellow) and also consider that they may be the recipient of the blue flag.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )

I'm afraid, possibly because I am an old fart that used to race, that it seems to be the current attitude of recent drivers, in all forms of circuit racing, that seems they should be the arbiters of how they should react to flags and driving standards, not marshals or the person responsible for ensuring both are followed properly.

And, I am afraid that the excuse that the driver didn't see the flags is as old as is motor racing. Problem is that it is impossible to actually monitor so maybe we should get Bill Gates to come up with an injectable chip that can record what the drivers can see or has seen.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm afraid, possibly because I am an old fart that used to race, that it seems to be the current attitude of recent drivers, in all forms of circuit racing, that seems they should be the arbiters of how they should react to flags and driving standards, not marshals or the person responsible for ensuring both are followed properly.

Indeed. It seems a sport in itself to try and find blame for what the sport is doing wrong. However it is simple here. The blame lies with Bottas and Verstappen.

We live in a world we’re it is always someone’s else’s fault. Everyone sounds like my kid.

[S griffin]

Yes, yellow flags are never an option. If you don’t see them and others do, be more observant. If you see them, but don’t slow down for them, that is just plain dangerous, as we have seen before in racing

[ascarracinguk]

Im fully on the marshals side here, lets not forget we are talking about highly skilled drivers here, that have been racing since the age of 8, they SHOULD be able to spot the flags.

There was a pretty scary incident in WEC at Bahrain this month (I think) where a marshal was on circuit and was almost hit by a GT car because he didnt slow for the yellows/ VSC.

With all that said, this is a partnership between drivers and marshals. There is definately an art form in protraying the seriousness of an incident to a driver.

One of the most valuable experiences i had, was a training day at Oulton Park. We were driven around the circuit at high speed by Barry Williams and were asked on the return to the pits at what points we saw the flags...

...it was an eye opener that when you get tunnel vision, how much you need to wave a flag to notice it properly. Made me a better marshal

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm afraid, possibly because I am an old fart that used to race, that it seems to be the current attitude of recent drivers, in all forms of circuit racing, that seems they should be the arbiters of how they should react to flags and driving standards, not marshals or the person responsible for ensuring both are followed properly.

And, I am afraid that the excuse that the driver didn't see the flags is as old as is motor racing. Problem is that it is impossible to actually monitor so maybe we should get Bill Gates to come up with an injectable chip that can record what the drivers can see or has seen.

A less drastic solution might be to use helmet cams, then everyone could see what's happening from the driver's eye-view.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Basically i think drivers have become too reliant on these other things and have taken their eye off the ball where flags are concerned.

combined with a new track and limited running, perhaps we are at a limit of what a driver can keep their eye on at one time?

everyone will have suggestions on how to fix things (and this may be something i am falsely remembering something that they used to do?)...but how about an additional sound warning as well?

they know what sector every car is in so once the notice for a flag is issued a warning sound is broadcast to every car in that sector should be a relatively simple fix to implement?

is that silly?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A less drastic solution might be to use helmet cams, then everyone could see what's happening from the driver's eye-view.

in the fix f1 thread i have speculated a few times about F1 moving to helmets with HUD/AR capabilities...in this case something that could display flags on their visors.

DanRic was commenting on his inability to spot any of the track markers during the start of the race on account of being sandwiched in between other cars. could help for this as well.

certainly expensive and perhaps something that could be used too much as a drivers aide but the opposite of low tech solutions are high tech solutions and F1 does love itself complicated tech.

anyways im totally off topic here. back to the wars!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

combined with a new track and limited running, perhaps we are at a limit of what a driver can keep their eye on at one time?

everyone will have suggestions on how to fix things (and this may be something i am falsely remembering something that they used to do?)...but how about an additional sound warning as well?

they know what sector every car is in so once the notice for a flag is issued a warning sound is broadcast to every car in that sector should be a relatively simple fix to implement?

is that silly?

New track, limited running? Maybe, but then there were numerous flags over the weekend with dozens of cars not breaking the rules, so I’d say let’s not overreact. 2 people being caught out isn’t that great a number, it just had large consequences because it was in qualifying.

Let’s face it, if it was Masespin getting a penalty, this thread would have ended days ago.

I think the driver has enough beeps for gear changes and the radio with the team. Could easily miss an important flag signal via the audio.

[Greem]

An important thing to remember - last year (I think!), in Mexico, Bottas crashed and damaged the light panel system. FIA signalling telemetry in the cars is sent and received by the panels (for the indicators on the wheel). In the case of that crash, the *only* thing the approaching drivers were left with was the flags.

A flag never loses power. Unless it's dropped into the tyre wall *whistles innocently*.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

e.g. - if there was a marshal's post that was waving a blue flag, a light panel flashing yellow and your in-car system was reporting 'green' - what action should a driver take? I would put it that the driver has to observe the safest option (assume they are passing a yellow) and also consider that they may be the recipient of the blue flag.

An experienced flaggie would not display a blue flag to cars approaching a yellow zone - it's asking for cars to overtake when they're not supposed to.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

An experienced flaggie would not display a blue flag to cars approaching a yellow zone - it's asking for cars to overtake when they're not supposed to.

Maybe a bad example to put out there. Although what if the yellow light panel was initiated by Race Control, not the flaggie?


(Not wanting to sound critical, just trying to illustrate a point that there may be discrepancy between light panels and flags for genuine reasons )

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe a bad example to put out there. Although what if the yellow light panel was initiated by Race Control, not the flaggie?


(Not wanting to sound critical, just trying to illustrate a point that there may be discrepancy between light panels and flags for genuine reasons )

Tbh as a flaggie I’ve never liked lightboards being initiated by race control. Men/ women on the ground can often see more than race control.

Obviously for safety car/ VSC/ red flag that situation changes, but for white, yellow, blue, green and limited adhesion lights I’d take a decent flaggies judgment over race controls any day

I’m also not the biggest fan of lightboards tbh. They certainly have their purpose in fog, rain and at night, but what they can’t show is the severity of an incident.

A flag marshal can convey how serious an incident is by how he/she/ they wave the flag. Low risk a gentle wave, extreme danger…litterally hanging out of the marshals point, waving violently and pointing towards potential danger. A light just blinks

[Greem]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe a bad example to put out there. Although what if the yellow light panel was initiated by Race Control, not the flaggie?

As someone who's flagged *and* operated the F1 Marshalling System light panels at a number of British Grand Prix, I hope the following might offer some constructive points for everyone.

Just for F1, and using Silverstone as an example: There are 31 flag points on the GP circuit. There are 15 light panels. Each panel has an operator nearby, who is usually an experienced flag marshal themselves. Each panel can align with one or more flag points; it is usual for them to cover two but some are by themselves, and some can cover three.

The F1MS Light Panel Marshal (as the tabard says!) has to keep tabs on all of the flag points in their cover area, and mirror what the flaggies are doing (excepting the blue, which for F1 is automated via GPS & telemetry). To give some examples, again from my experience at Silverstone:

1. Luffield In - one panel operator, one flag point (Luffield Centre). Panel is in the straight-on position on the outside of the track before the cars turn in to Luffield. Controller is in the corner before the panel.

2. Beckett's - one panel operator, three flag points (Beckett's In, Beckett's Centre and Beckett's Out). Panel is on the inside so driver's right about half way through the sequence. Controller is towards the final part of the sequence.

3. International Pit Straight - one panel operator, two (and sometimes three!) flag points. Panel is opposite the garages towards the middle of the pit lane, on the left. Controller is opposite the garages towards the end of the pits.

I've been on more posts but they're possibly the best illustration.

In any of those places, if one of the flag points goes yellow, the panel operator goes yellow too - usually at the same time - and the TV graphics go yellow too ("Yellow Flag Sector 1" for example). When the incident clears, *or* when race control instruct, *or* when race control do it themselves, the controller resets the signal, the graphics go "Green", and the race continues.

If you've got one or two points to watch, both in the same direction, it's really easy. If you've got two or three, and they're spread either side of you (as in examples 2 and 3 above) you really have to keep your attention up and ensure you don't get tunnel vision in one direction.

In some cases, especially with multi-car incidents, it's easy to concentrate on e.g. the car that's just gone past spewing debris, wait for the yellows that side, go single yellow, and then turn around and realise that the flaggies upstream are frantically waving doubles because someone is upside down in the middle of the track which you then have to upgrade the panel to. Even a couple of seconds at moments like that feels like an eternity.

With the flaggies themselves, there are usually two or more per flag point. One is on the yellow, facing downstream, another on blue facing upstream, and if there's someone else there they can help with safety car boards and so on. That way they don't get suckered into all looking the same way (hopefully!).

All the panel ops are on the same radio channel as the blue flag marshals, yellows on a different channel. I think I've had a couple of times where I've been instructed to do one thing and the flaggies another, on purpose, because of the position of an incident - referrring to the "sometimes three" above is because cars that pull off around Abbey (T1) can be in a place for the panel to be yellow, but posts 1 and 2 don't have flags out, just 3, yet RC want lights 1 to be yellow because the car is out of sight round the corner.

Ultimately, F1 is a bloody high speed event and everything has to work exactly to plan and instruction, but there's room for mistakes (small or large) at every level. We're all human, after all - from marshals to drivers to senior officials. When the eyes of the world are focused on an event, with diabolically entrenched views about things, and potentially tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds at stake - it's easy to forget that there are very experienced, yet slightly imperfect and potentially by the end of a race weekend fairly tired human beings involved.

So there you go. A view from the trenches.

[ascarracinguk]

In summary:

Drivers are human, they make mistakes
Marshals are human, they make mistakes
Those criticising are w***ers, they’re welcome to sign up and give it a go if they think they can do it better

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

A flag never loses power. Unless it's dropped into the tyre wall *whistles innocently*.

So, as they have been having guests/celebrities wave the checkered flag at the end. I was wondering... if that person dropped the flag accidently. How many spares might they have ready? Same thing for regular marshal post?
Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So, as they have been having guests/celebrities wave the checkered flag at the end. I was wondering... if that person dropped the flag accidently. How many spares might they have ready? Same thing for regular marshal post?
Richard

No spares on post. If you drop one it’s easily retrieved

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

No spares on post. If you drop one it’s easily retrieved

I figured that might be the case for a post. But for the start/finish. In which you may be hanging over the circuit. I suppose there is a spare checkered flag or two? You drop one, it might be on the circuit many feet below you and not easy to retrieve

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I figured that might be the case for a post. But for the start/finish. In which you may be hanging over the circuit. I suppose there is a spare checkered flag or two? You drop one, it might be on the circuit many feet below you and not easy to retrieve

Richard

I’ve don’t chequereds at Donington and Oulton and they don’t there, but they have a second chequered post slightly further down the straight just in case drivers miss the first one