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14 Apr 2021, 20:56 (Ref:4046020) | #3051 | |
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Exactly, sometimes it takes time for a car to get up to speed. Remember the hatchback BMW that first appeared in 2013? That took time to get up to speed, yet it won the championship the next year
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15 Apr 2021, 07:11 (Ref:4046043) | #3052 | ||
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Anybody thinm BTC have been unusually quiet this winter?
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15 Apr 2021, 07:12 (Ref:4046044) | #3053 | ||
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[forum server burp/double post]
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15 Apr 2021, 07:17 (Ref:4046045) | #3054 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
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15 Apr 2021, 07:54 (Ref:4046048) | #3055 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 3,256
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15 Apr 2021, 08:40 (Ref:4046054) | #3056 | |
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15 Apr 2021, 09:15 (Ref:4046061) | #3057 | |
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 290
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The new focus is definitely quicker than the old one. It had two pole positions with weight 36kg onboard and won 5 races between two drivers the last time the focus was ever that competitive was 2016 with Jordan and jackson
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15 Apr 2021, 09:20 (Ref:4046063) | #3058 | ||
Race Official
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Posts: 10,279
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Is that down to the car or the drivers though?
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15 Apr 2021, 10:06 (Ref:4046067) | #3059 | ||
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In 2016, Mat Jackson and Andy Jordan were driving the car - two very quick and capable drivers.
In 2020, Butcher and Ollie Jackson were driving the car. Comparing 2016 qualifying times with 2020; the 2020 car was quicker on every single layout except for Snetterton and a wet Brands Indy. I accept that there will also be some ballast and temperature considerations - but overall the newer Focus is consistently quicker. |
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15 Apr 2021, 11:37 (Ref:4046073) | #3060 | |
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15 Apr 2021, 17:08 (Ref:4046118) | #3061 | ||
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So to try and see if their is a clear improvement in models, and development limitations being reached, I took a look at a few circuits to see if this is true.
The first challenge was identifying qualifying sessions where the conditions were broadly similar - so all damp/wet/drying sessions have been excluded. To make the comparison, I looked at makes of car that were consistently entered by the same team, to avoid the potential that difference in performance is down to the team. Going back to the original NGTC entries, this means that the performances of the Focus (Mk.3 to Mk.4), Civic (9th Gen to FK8) and BMW (125 to 330) were reviewed alongside the A-Class. First up is Thruxton. |
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"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
15 Apr 2021, 17:14 (Ref:4046120) | #3062 | ||
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Silverstone, Knockhill, Donington Park and Brands Indy all show a similar picture.
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"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
15 Apr 2021, 17:27 (Ref:4046125) | #3063 | ||
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And finally, when you combine the performance across all dry qualifying sessions for each marque, the difference seems clear.
Whilst it is probably too early to tell for certain, there appears to be trends emerging. The move to a newer model car (and application of prior experience in the homologation process) allows a step change in performance to be achieved. In the early years of the A-Class development, its performance remained broadly similar to the Ford, Honda and BMW entries on the grid. Over the last two seasons, that performance began to dip noticeably in comparison, and a clear delta emerged between the A-Class and its rivals. This may not be conclusive, but does back up the view that the development potential of the A-Class had reached the end of its life, and so a move to a newer model is needed to remain competitive. To me it seems obvious - give a BTCC team any base car to work with from scratch, and what they submit for homolgation in 2021 will be quicker than a car designed/homologated in 2012/2013. So if it was permitted to homologate an FK2 Civic, VW CC or MG-6 today, the resultant car would be quicker than the previous iterations seen in the BTCC. |
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"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
15 Apr 2021, 20:00 (Ref:4046150) | #3064 | |
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You could well be right, but there’s so many other variables nobody could ever prove it one way or the other.
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16 Apr 2021, 15:11 (Ref:4046262) | #3065 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 64
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Quote:
The FK2 v FK8 debate was one that did bubble along , the feeling was/is that an FK2 with the latest wheel/tyres plus the latest engine pack would have been a very potent vehicle . The FK2 was seen by Matt as a very raceable car , the FK8 more of as Matt said a “Diva” . The FK8 is fantastic in clear air as it has working aero , out the back at Thruxton it was clearly the fastest car however it’s is not so happy when it has to follow , a trait also seen in the 3 Series BMW, the FK2 was happy to follow and was handy in a wheel to wheel battle, I doubt it could chase down as fast as the FK8. This sets up an interesting season for sure , Gordon is a renowned racer a less renowned qualifier, my guess is that he will need to qualify well , I genuinely hope he does. I am off to the support paddock pages enjoy the season when it starts.! |
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16 Apr 2021, 17:55 (Ref:4046287) | #3066 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 285
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Quote:
Also between the 2 models you have GPRM/RML hardware and the tire size became a little wider a few years ago. Also compounds have been improved by Dunlop/Goodyear. The whole debate about which car handles the best comes down to the Engineer & the team bolting it all together and prep between races. All the same mechanical hardware is available to all the teams. |
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16 Apr 2021, 18:08 (Ref:4046292) | #3067 | ||
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Quote:
you can have the greatest driver in the world but if he doesn't trust his engineer, bolties and car, he's not going anywhere near the podium. |
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devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides |
16 Apr 2021, 18:53 (Ref:4046297) | #3068 | ||
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In the January edition of the eMagazine, we ran a feature on the FK2 - this was part of the quote from Andrew Jordan when talking about his title winning car:
"I think the only thing that came close was the BMW 3 Series and even then, the BMW was a car that could be very good on its day but could also be average, whereas the Honda was a car that was very good all the time. "My view is that the FK2 was a better car than the FK8 is now, and if Dynamics went out and built a new one today, then I think it would win the title." |
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16 Apr 2021, 19:07 (Ref:4046298) | #3069 | |||
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Quote:
If they were to build a new car using the existing as-homologated design, I am not as certain. Otherwise, we would expect NGTC-12-008 to be a quicker car than NGTC-12-004 - which was not the case. As it is - NGTC-12-005 (built 2012) was retained by TD whereas NGTC-12-007 (built in 2015) was sold. |
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17 Apr 2021, 06:39 (Ref:4046363) | #3070 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,177
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I think where the FK2 was so good was that with the right driver, it was very good at maintaining a tight line on turn in to corners, without losing any speed or momentum. Idea for the cut backs, how many times have we seen the Honda's perfect the undercut and nip up the inside on corner exit.
The only other car I can think of that was a good as that, was the Avensis in Ingram's hands and of course Sutton can seemingly place a car anywhere - but that is pure talent. |
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17 Apr 2021, 06:40 (Ref:4046364) | #3071 | |
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Double post for some reason!
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19 Apr 2021, 17:57 (Ref:4046765) | #3072 | |
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Posts: 4,433
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so anymore livery reveals ?
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19 Apr 2021, 18:02 (Ref:4046767) | #3073 | |
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19 Apr 2021, 18:26 (Ref:4046771) | #3074 | |
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19 Apr 2021, 18:43 (Ref:4046777) | #3075 | ||
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