[WTCC] The hypothetical WTCC

[hoffy]

O.k ladies and gents. Lets sit down and think about this for a while. We are all members of a board who want to promote a revived ( remeber, there was one back in '87) world touring car championship. We have to come up with a set of reg's that will suit 80% of manufacturers and markets world wide. We have to keep it entertaining and we have to keep it, with in reason, competitive. As this championship is based at manufacturer involvment, also with in reason, cost is no option. But we must plan it wisely. We dont want a return to the old group A days. Oh and while we are at it, lets comeup with a list of 16 events, on 6 continents.

To get the ball rolling, I think we should come up with some basic guidlines. The cars should maintain there original body work, wheelbase and drive configuration, ie, front wheel drive, etc, etc.

Remember, these are just suggestions, so they are open for discussion.

[marcus]

interesting topic hoffy..

when you say original bodywork i take it therefore wings are out...ok fine but i think fixed wings that are non adjustable should be allowed just to add a bit of toughness to the cars..now it all depends on wether you are going super touring or not..but in my view this forum has become divided of late with super touring and V8 supercar so i think we should come up with something that will cater for both fan bases..im not big on tech stuff so i wont go blurting out a heap of engine regs and the like but the tracks I can come up with quite easily.

how about

Donnington park (England)
Phillip Island (Oz)
Laguna seca (USA)
Hungaroring (Europe for extra close racing)
Suzuka (Japan)
Castle Combe (for all its fans on this site)
Spa (Europe)
Hockenhiem (for ultra fast stuff)
Elkhart lake (USA YEAH BABY )
Monaco (for the street racing fan)
Bathurst (maybe as last round ??)

well there is 11 off the top of my head..

do you think the FIA will sanction this series or are we wasting our time ????

[KC]

Personally I ould adopt these rules...

1. Use the new DTM or V8 Supercar or even Trans Am rules designed for silhouette race cars. The cost of these machines pales in comparison to taking a road car unibody and converting it to a race car. Also, the use of reinforced tubular chassis is easy for many teams to manufacture instead of it just being a factory effort only. The cars should be based on road car coupes with stock bonnet, roof panel, door skins and boot lid used in the race car. This keeps the road car ties very evident.

2. Aerodynamic devices should be fixed at the beginning of the season. Wings and splitters should be used, they are race cars after all.

3. Hold events all over the world. Nurburgring, Spa Francorchamps, Brands Hatch, Monza, Laguna Seca, Adelaide, Sepang, Suzuka, Paul Ricard, A-1 Ring, and Kyalami. If one race can be held the home country of each competing manufacturer all the better. Wherever possible tie in with another series like the ALMS to hold mega-race weekends.

I think this would produce close and exciting racing between an myriad of manufacturers at low cost. The only really expense is moving the whole thing from country to country and continent to continent. A sponsor tie-in with FedEx, DHL, or UPS could be the answer to that problem.

[hoffy]

A good start gents! I totally have to agree with you about areo kits. But lets not turn them into sport sedans, so maybe we should limit the size of the rear wing and frt splitter.

I also have to agree about the silhouette formula. It is much easier to make a race car from scratch as opposed to making a road car into a racecar. But then we are getting away from the idea of a 'Touring car' championship and more into a GT ALMS type championship.

And what about engines. Should we stick to a 'stock block' type or should we go for out and out race motors?

[Crash Test]

What, we don't want them to become Sport Sedans? Heck, make it easy for the police, have a class with no rules!

Space frame whatever car in existance you like, but the car has to stick to the shiluette, and retain items such as doors (but allow flared wheel arches).
Have whatever engines you like, and minimum wieghts for the different displacement engines.
Ban exotic stuff, ban things that would make it too expensive.
In the end you have an ultra fast, ultra spectacular class, that doesnt cost the earth.

Why this over the other classes:
Trans Ams are turning into the DTM next season (in a round about way) and they are more regional series (i guess most car makers would be able to field cars in this series, but it would be limited). V8s are out of the question for the same reason.

No STs, and everyone knows why. And no group N/super production....do we want to bore the crowd to death??

[DAVID PATERSON]

Hoffy won't like this, but what about Group A. They only made one mistake with the regs, allowing 500 homolgation specials after the initial build of the 5000 basic cars.

Remember the first couple of years, before the RS500 and GT-R took hold. The racing had been very close, lots of variety, different cars winning at different circuits, different cars having a speed advantage on different parts of the circuit. The cars were fast and they looked it too. All different noises, sizes and configuartaions. The basic formula which tied engine size, minimum weight and wheel/tyre size together was a masterstroke. Also, gutted interiors and standard bodywork was right too. The cars were easy to recognise and having the original motor spec was also right.

[hoffy]

Dont get me wrong, David. I loved group A and must admit I was a touch sad when it went the way of the dodo. But I think that whole Homolgation thing, where only 500 examples needed to be made was just a touch wrong. Maybe 5000 would of been a better number.

[mtpanorama]

Been thinking about this for a couple of days now. The silhouette idea is probably a good one.Each manufacturer gets the same suspension and drive train os it is upto the teams to sort out the handling themselves.
Have whatever engine configuration you want, but limit the horse power by the way of rev limiters or something like that.
The other way to make it more even is to have a power to weight system like they do in porsche cup in australia.
Aerodynamics would be kept to a minimum,

[Falcadore]

I'd like to echo DP's call for a Group A Formula, in the mid 80's we had Alfa Romeo, BMW, Ford, Holden, Jaguar, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Rover, Toyota, Volvo all at reasonable competitiveness, but the most attractive thing about Group A was the emphasis of equivalent rather than equal. Categories like DTM, Super Touring and V8Supercar all put too much emphasis on the cars being equal. You don't want equal, you want equivalent. By that I mean cars that do approixmately the smae lap times, but are fast in different areas. Turbo car terrors, lightweight rocketships and V8 behemoths are all fast cars but they're fastest at different points of a circuit, this is how passing will occur, like the old days when the tiny BMW's were swamped on the straights but could be thrown through the corners.

As for events?
Hrmmmm.
A few compulsories, Bathurst, Spa & Nurburgring. Must have the three most fearsome circuits in the world. So Spa 24 Hour, Bathurst 1000 and a revival Nurburgring Nordschleife 1000. Multiple race sprint event format to go on support programs at the Monaco Grand Prix and Le Mans 24 Hour. Revive the Monza 1000 as well. Wellington 500 Street Race in New Zealand. An event at Interlagos, Brazil; Welkom, South Africa; Fuji or Suzuka 500, Support race at the US GP at Indianapolis, plus a race at Silverstone or Brands Hatch. Consider Anderstorp, Sweden; Brno, Czech Republic; Sepang, Malaysia and Barcelona, Spain epending on interest levels of Volvo, Skoda, Proton & Seat.

You got glamour, great cars good racing, and nationalistic fervour. What more could you want?

yours
Mark Jones

[PBrock]

i love the idea falcodore. Group A were the good old days.

[PBrock]

If we want this, i say we get a world wide pertision going to the FIA or whoever is in charge.

Imagine a world wide touring car championship happening once again.

Who's with me?

[DAVID PATERSON]

Not Bernie Ecclestone

[Airhead]

Sounds good Falc, do you mind me calling you by your first name I have problems with the tag at the end.

Group A was the glory days in many ways but convincing the masses now stuck to a two make domestic formula would be difficult. It just needs more interst than super tourers were able to generate. People buy these Camry's and Hyundia's but they don't aspire to them.

[Falcadore]

Aspiration is another key isn't it? That's the big selling point of Nation's Cup, and why by mid season the guys running around in Class C/D/E GT-Prod series will feel hard done by compared to the guys in the Class A/B series.

Chevrolet Corvette C5, Dodge Viper ACR, Ferrari F355 Challenge, Ferrari 360 Modena Challenge, Ford Saleen Mustang S351, Honda NSX Brabham, Jaguar XK8, Lamborghini Diablo VT, Maserati Ghibli, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Porsche 993 RSCS, Porsche 996 GT3, Toyota Supra Turbo, TVR Chimeara - it sells itself doesn't it?

yours
Mark Jones

[crash]

My ideas for the WTCC (Please remember I am not too good with techincal stuff , so there may be a few stupid errors in this )

TRACKS:
OK, I don't want to spoil everyones fun choosing tracks, but I personally think we must limit the number of events to 5 or 6. WHY? Because I doubt that enough teams would commit to a championship with 15-16 rounds. A driver would probably prefer to finish first in his national series, than seventh or eighth in an International Series. How about having all the races towards the end of the season? Also, maybe it would be wise to keep the series out of America to begin with.
(Calender: Brands Hatch [6 hour endurance race], Monza [?], Adelaide [500km], Donnington, Nurburgring [prefrably the Nordschleife, but we may have to use the boring new one for safety reasons], and Spa [24 hour] to finish of the season.
Races in September - December.
___________________________

FORMAT:
Sprint races and endurance. No reverse grid though! Apart from the Brand Hatch, Adelaide and Spa endurace rounds, I think we should have two 40 minute races, with compulsory pitstops in the first race.
The endurace rounds would have three drivers per car for the 24 hour race, and two for the other races. Compulsory pitstop changes of course! Adelaide 500 should be at night time, from 6:30pm, till 9-10pm.
___________________________

CARS:
How about three classes?
Class A: 5.0 Litre V8's, similar to Aussie V8 Supercars. Engines must not be turbocharged and cars must be based on production cars. Engines must be based on production engines where possible (Cars: Ford Falcon, Volvo C70, Mercedes CLK, Audi TT, Holden Commodore, Opel Astra)

Class B: 2.0 Litre Super Tourers (Cars: Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Vectra, Audi A4, BMW 318i, Nissan Primera, Honda Accord, Peugoet 405, Alfa Romeo 156)

CLASS C: Turbocharged 4WD cars. Lots of turbo boost (Cars: Nissan Skyline, Subaru WRX, Mitsubushi Lancer that sort of thing)
___________________________

THE DRIVERS:
I would imagine we would get loads of ex F1 drivers, just like in the ALMS. Young drivers doing well accross the world would also join. I think we'd end up with drivers such as Bernd Schneider, Jason Bright, Gabrieli Tarquini, Jason Plato etc...

___________________________

SUPPORT ROUNDS:
The Adelaide race could be tied in with the Adelaide Race in the ALMS that is on December 2, 2001. All other rounds could be supported by a historic touring car race featuring Sierra's and TWR Jaguars. What about a celebrity race to keep the fans happy.
___________________________

I think this is such a good post that I might make a feature of this at my website. I may even propose the idea to a few car manufacturers and drivers to see what they think of it. Also, perhaps as smeone has laready suggested, I could submit the idea to FIA to see what they think.

BY the way, does anyone object to having there ideas incorporated into the feature? I would of course credit the Ten-Tenth posters who contributed.

[hoffy]

I leave the thread for 2 days and look what happens! I must admit I am leaning towards a modified Group A set of rules, except I would abolish the abiltiy to allow for homologation specials. The manufacturers should be able to use areo kits for there race cars without having to use them on their road cars first. And the same should apply to engine parts etc, etc.

As in regards to tracks and events, I think I'm leaning the way of most people, but I'll still give you a list of what I reakon would makea good championship.
Spa, 24 hours
Bathurst 1000kms
Brands Hatch, 500kms
Nurburgering, 1000kms
Kylami, 500kms
Monza, 500kms
Suzuka, 500kms
TBA (??) Maybe a street race in the US, but if not, either Laguna Seca or Road America, 500kms
Welington, 500kms
I would also have one more round in Asia, possibly Malaysia, and one more in either Europe or Canada

Also, what cars do you think would and or should be eligible?

[Falcadore]

One in Asia? Only one possible answer.
The Guia 500 at Macau.
yours
Mark Jones
"Michael! How's that German car of yours?"
"Fast. The Ferrari?"
"Fast"

[TheShadow]

...the travel costs would be out of hand. Besides, ever try to get a sponsor to back your team on four or five continents? All you have to do is have the VP Marketing from say.. OZ to say no and the whole deal is out the window.

Common rules world wide is a realistic goal. The question is it ST or a variation, super production, or tube frame DTM/Trans Am cars?

The DTM/TA cars are the most exciting and cost effective route, but the TA cars and even the DTM coupes are more tube frame, front engine GT's than touring cars.

How about the STARS rules and their four door bodies as a standard world wide formula? The OZ V8 Supercars could follow this path as could a series in N.A.

If you did have a common formula, I could then see a World Cup event taking place each year.

[JMeissner]

For sure the costs will be one of the most important factors to concider when thinking of a WTCC. Many championships has brought in rules with smaller engines and wings etc. to reduce costs. But, isnt that boring?! Hell yeah! Isnt it possible to combinate low costs and spectacular cars with big engines and turbos? I think it is!

The Formula of WTCC:

Two different classes that will be raced in the same race.

Class 1 - 3 Litre engines with no turbo or super charger. 6 to 8 cylinders.

Class 2 - 2 Litre engines with turbo, and the turbo is to be the same for everyone in the championship to reduce costs. 4 to 6 cylinders.

Around 300 - 350 hp.

These two classes I think could make interestning races, turbo vs larger engines. Engine rules should ofcourse be set in the classes so the cars from the two seperate classes will get very evenly matched.

Aerodynamic packages should be identical for all, in style of DTM. FWD, RWD and 4WD should all be allowed, but ofcourse with weights to make the races close.

To keep the cost even lower, a large number of components in the cars like clutch, gearbox (Xtrac), turbo etc etc should be the same for everyone. Reduced testdays and each team must choose two engines in the start of the season to race with just as in the new DTM rules.

The formates of the races should be just as in the BTCC, the sprint races makes the races so mucth more exiting and so does the tyrechange in the feature race. Two races each weekend, one short sprint and one longer feature race with tyre change.

Calendar :

March Brazil, Interlagos
April USA, Laguna Seca
May, UK, Brands Hatch GP
June, Germany, Nürburgring (Nordschleife, ofcourse)
July, Sweden, Anderstorp
August, Italy, Monza
September, Japan, Suzuka
Oktober, Australia, Bathurst


How does that sound?

[DNQ]

Imagine this if it were to happen. It'd be mega.

But realistically, do you think we'll ever have a WTCC again?

[Falcadore]

No.

But this thread wasn't about realism. That's what Hypothetical means.

yours
Mark Jones
"Michael! How's that German car of yours?"
"Fast. The Ferrari?"
"Fast."

[DNQ]

Sorry for digging up old threads...but I was looking back through my old posts and found this - great stuff, thought It might be a good one to revive to have a look at again

[Crash Test]

Bloody hell, boy, sit down for a minute, because you've done a lot of digging!

[Alfa Fan]

This thread is 18 months old. Where did you find it! It must be one of the very first threads on this forum!

[yago]

I believe the two more popular touring car championship have been the BTCC and the DTM (I omit Nascar as it is quite different).

Why not mix both of them: 4-door saloons as not many manufacturers have coupés with 2-litre engines but with DTM bodystyle and tubular chassis (to make it cheaper). As long as the car looks like the road car, engines could be at the back (like in the French series – seen those Mondeo with Jaguar engines ?).

Cars would be built by manufacturers or “approved” specialists like Schintzer, Prodrive… and would have a fixed price. A series of… let’s say ten would have to be built.

No factory team would be allowed although a factory could help with a fixed percentage different teams.

As for a worldwide coverage, I don’t think it is feasible with touring cars, because apart from the sponsors problems, many manufacturers won’t be interested by races held in markets where they are not present.

But I think something like the soccer cup could be thought of.
Ten cars from the British championship racing against the German championship and the winner would race against the winners of the Italian versus French championship, etc.

Could be fun.

Yago