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Old 26 Jan 2015, 05:54 (Ref:3497521)   #16
Bill Brown
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Bill Brown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We should just copy the posts from:
MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'
To refresh our memories!!
Because it sure has already been thrashed to death
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 06:15 (Ref:3497522)   #17
RogerH
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RogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Agree Bill that is has been trashed to death - but maybe it needs refreshed thrashing because the answers haven't been found and the deterioration continues.
Although this forum's posters involvement in the sport is in various forms I think there is a common view that we want the sport to be vibrant and grow and there is genuine concern with the state that it is in.
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 20:01 (Ref:3497732)   #18
Nigel TV3
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Originally Posted by Mark Petch View Post
Hi Rodger,

It will be no surprise to you that I agree with you sentiments, and that's the root of the problem. I was at Hampton Downs both weekends and thoroughly enjoyed myself wondering around talking to a great many people I have not seen for years. I must admit other than watching Kenny demolish the only real opposition, et al. Proctor and Ross, I did very little spectating but just enjoyed the great atmosphere that existed over two very hot weekend's.

I even saw Crunch Bennett and his young son soaking up the same atmosphere, so at least one member of the MSNZ executive is in touch with reality.

There is no one common denominator, that can explain the demise of Tier One, racing save for the WFC in 2008, however, I can point to things going wrong with Tier One as far back as the 2006/2007 season when from memory TMC turned over nearly $4 Million in revenue and under Martin Fine's management thought it was bullet proof.

The decision they took to ditch TV1 in favour of TV3 [and no I am not taking potshot's at the coverage or quality of one versus the other] was the turning point in the slippery slide to oblivion amongst all the lies and deceit that went with it.

The fact is that TV1 were paying TMC a $400,000 annual "Broadcasting Fee", plus they supplied their most senior sport producer David Turner, at no cost to TMC to direct, produce ,and edit all the footage provided by TMC's private video contractor's.

However, when TMC believed they could do better by jumping ship to TV3 under a deal brokered by TV3's then head of sale's Colin Caldwell, who also happened to be a budding Porsche Competitor, and who it is alleged eventually lost his job because of the resulting 'smelly' mess, things very quickly turned pear shape.

TMC believed that in accepting a heavily discounted 1.2 million pa. in contra advertising, for the Series broadcasting rights, would mean that they, TMC, stood to make a net profit on their TV coverage [if they could successfully sell the contra] enter one Geoff Short, who was handed the contract to sell the Contra in return for being given 20% of the advertising space to sell of to his own account.

MSNZ was equally to blame because they owned the controlling interest in TMC, but were mere dancing puppets to the grand master of the "Punch and Judy" show.

MSNZ, not TMC, had a 10 year contract with Toyota NZ and when the number of TRS fell below 15 cars they failed to hold Toyota NZ to account.

MSNZ also gave the unproven Toyota 86 class National Championship status without a season's trial and despite never fielding more than 10 cars it continue's to have MSNZ Championship Status. Even Martin Fine was against class proliferation.

I have no issue with Toyota's TRS series and applaud the opportunities they have given many of our very talented young kiwi driver like Brendon, Mitch, Rich'y, and Earl Bamber etc, the opportunity to move overseas's to further their careers. However, MSNZ failed to understand that the TRS Series is commercially un-promotable, so trying to tie other Tier One Classes to the TRS Series is commercial suicide, LIMO.

Test cricket does not need spectator's, it just need TV coverage to attract sponsorship and in turn the broadcaster to make it all pay through advertisers, Toyota NZ is big enough to do much the same as Cricket does for its TRS Series.

The rest is history, I could and should right a book about what went on but hey it wont change anything so why bother.
Mark, as I am still under Contract to TV3 I think it would be wise and prudent not to comment on your post, but I would like to add two facts....
1. TVNZ were never going to renew the Rights Fee paid to MSNZ/TMC, they had no option but accept the TV3 deal.
2. MSNZ/TMC still owe TV3 $100K in Production Costs for the very last NZV8 Round run by TMC.

Nigel.
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 20:30 (Ref:3497748)   #19
socram
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Originally Posted by Nigel TV3 View Post
2. MSNZ/TMC still owe TV3 $100K in Production Costs for the very last NZV8 Round run by TMC.
So that is where most of our excessive licence, permit and race levy fees go... Doesn't exactly endear itself to Classic racers who seem to be contributing the majority of the race levy fees and - then get zero paid coverage and support from MSNZ and have been grizzling for ages.
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 20:30 (Ref:3497749)   #20
atmosports
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My views on why Tier 1 motor racing has failed is that MSNZ/Promoters haven't listened to the competitors. I've been involved in 2l touring cars, F/Ford, BMW mini's, NZV8's & also been involved in the officialdom side of NZV8Utes. The cost of racing has become prohibitive to most of the people that want to compete that earn wages every week unless we can track down & maintain a lot of sponsorship that just is no longer available. Add into that the constant changing of rules/regulations & improper enforcement of them. I struggled even as an official to get the rest of the official/promoters to see what I could see which was backed up by what the competitors were saying, competitors don't care if they are all going a second a lap slower but are all saving $3k a weekend on tyres etc.

Apart from the classic racing I haven't been back to a circuit event, mainly as I've been to busy with speedway where unless you have some really bad nights a lot of the midget competitors can fund it out of what they earn, & most nights you actually get something back towards the cost of your racing. Not to mention the rules have been fairly stable for years & we run pretty much the same rules here as they do in Australia/USA.

How to fix Tier 1?? Not simple really. We do need a premier open wheel & sedan(Closed car) championship whatever they end up. Then we need full fields with close racing as the feeder categories, preferably classes that race in both island with the same/similar rules that are affordable to most people to run with minimal/no sponsorship. I honestly feel we have way too many classes & way too many events & that has diluted the amounts of competitors/officials etc & caused what we've got now, I think we need to merge classes & go back to a more allcomers/time group style of racing where we have full fields & close racing & limit the costs per weekend but restricting fuel & the amount of tyres used per weekend/season. Or else ditch all the current tier 1 classes & then any other championship that is already running with 20-30+ cars should be given the option to step up(Most won't because they are full of club races that don't want all the BS that Tier 1 has).

Just my opinions from sitting back on the sidelines & watching over the last couple of years & listening to those that have been involved or are still involved.
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 20:56 (Ref:3497772)   #21
Ugy
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Ugy has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Purely from a spectators point of view there didn't seem to be much wrong with tier1/ NZV8s and the Utes 3 odd years ago, so what happened ?
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 22:18 (Ref:3497813)   #22
Chappelli
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Originally Posted by Mark Petch View Post
TMC believed that in accepting a heavily discounted 1.2 million pa. in contra advertising, for the Series broadcasting rights, would mean that they, TMC, stood to make a net profit on their TV coverage [if they could successfully sell the contra] enter one Geoff Short, who was handed the contract to sell the Contra in return for being given 20% of the advertising space to sell of to his own account.
Surely the remuneration would be 20% of the income generated, not 20% of the advertising space? (otherwise you’re creating a conflict of interest for your sales person).

What was the end result of the contra sale?
From what I’ve heard contra tends to be a fairly hard sell as there’s usually quite a few restrictions that come with it.
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 22:44 (Ref:3497820)   #23
Chappelli
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Chappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Also, is it just me or does there seem to be a number of situations where the hired gun appears to be “a bloke I know”?
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Old 26 Jan 2015, 23:52 (Ref:3497832)   #24
Bill Brown
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Bill Brown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Summer Series

The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.

Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.

What do we have now NZV8 and ST meetings both ho hum and far from successful.

I have not included any mention of Classic Racing. I believe that they are very successful in there own right and should not be compared with current series events. Although they do bring through the gate the few dedicated petrol heads who will go to any event, they also pull from a large group of classic petrol heads who may only ever attend classic meetings.

So in my view we should compare Current with current, classics with classics, Bikes with bikes etc.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 00:43 (Ref:3497839)   #25
Ugy
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Ugy has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Thanks for that
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 01:16 (Ref:3497847)   #26
socram
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socram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsocram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Bill Brown View Post
Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.
Sadly, although those classes may have been unique to the tier 1 meetings, apart from GT3 and Formula Ford, they are all effectively '1/2 make' series and I'd suggest that is the real root of the problem. Even in their heyday, neither Minis nor Suzuki Swifts had large numbers and neither are or were a drawcard.

Whether a series can be seen elsewhere or not is irrelevant. If it is good racing (however you want to assess 'good') the paying spectators are happy enough.

In my 30 years in NZ, I would say that the short series of Benson & Hedges and Nissan Mobil type races, with whatever support races they ran, were far more successful than anything in recent times.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 02:43 (Ref:3497858)   #27
Mark Petch
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Originally Posted by Bill Brown View Post
The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.

Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.
Wrong Bill, yes you were technically a director of TMC, but you like most people were kept in the dark. Martin Fine ran TMC like a Fiefdom, you and MSNZ were deliberately kept in the dark and if you say that you knew everything that went on, then frankly you are as guilty as Martin Fine and co in trading whilst insolvent. I don't think you knew the truth of the situation you were just guilty of being to loyal.

You question you need to ask yourself is, why there was a break away in the first place? If you were really interested in knowing why, you would then understand what lead to that breakaway in the first place. I am not going to air the dirty laundry in a public place but more that happy to show you the volume's of evidence we amassed back then.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 03:12 (Ref:3497866)   #28
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Goat Boy has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I quite liked the GT3's as long as we had Bairdo, Halliday and Reid running. True enough most of the rest were journeymen but grid numbers were okay and things used to get pretty heated up front!

I agree with Ray, I loved the old Group A's but we've already had that discussion on another thread. Although it's interesting to see that as far as power plants go, V8SC's model for the future includes fours, sixes and turbos so someone should rock up with a Skyline GTR!
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 03:42 (Ref:3497872)   #29
RogerH
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RogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Bill Brown View Post
…….. I have not included any mention of Classic Racing. I believe that they are very successful in there own right and should not be compared with current series events. Although they do bring through the gate the few dedicated petrol heads who will go to any event, they also pull from a large group of classic petrol heads who may only ever attend classic meetings.

So in my view we should compare Current with current, classics with classics, Bikes with bikes etc.
You can't substitute Classic racing with Tier 1 racing as Classic racing could never, from a matter of principle, take Tier 1's place.

However, I believe you can compare them if only to demonstrate the mire that Tier 1 is in. When you look at the entrant and spectator numbers at the top Classic meetings, they are not indicative of a sport in crisis. By comparison the entrant and spectator numbers at Tier 1 are pathetic but I don't think it is reflective of disinterest in the sport - just disinterest in the Tier 1 product.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 04:14 (Ref:3497879)   #30
Chappelli
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The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.
For me as a spectator the first sign of rot was sitting in the grand stand watching an Austin Powers impersonator “entertain” the crowd 3 years after “do you think I’m sexy baby” stopped being funny....
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