[Driver] The GOAT - Round Three - Vettel vs Moss

[crmalcolm]

The third match-up in Round Three sees Vettel vs Moss.

Vettel was victorious 11-4 in the second round, whilst Moss took a 12-2 victory.

So who do you vote for as the greater driver?

Sebastian Vettel
Sebastian Vettel’s career has been marked by considerable season-to-season variability. At his absolute best Vettel rates as one of the finest drivers in the history of the sport. Yet, there have been questionable periods too, such as his 2014 drubbing by Daniel Ricciardo (possibly influenced by a lack of mileage compared to his teammate) and his clumsy seasons at Ferrari.

Vettel began his F1 career at Toro Rosso, alongside the more experienced Vitantonio Liuzzi, against whom he scored 1-3 in counting races (after throwing away a strong result in Fuji), 3-4 in qualifying, and 6-3 in points. Although Vettel was still very rough around the edges, he had obvious potential. Toro Rosso retained Vettel for 2008, this time alongside the rookie Sebastien Bourdais, who was fresh off winning four consecutive Champ Car titles. Vettel dominated his new teammate 11-2 in counting races, 13-4 in qualifying, and 35-4 in points, earning a promotion to Red Bull.

In just his third season, aged 21, Vettel now found himself in a championship-contending car, alongside the 32-year-old Mark Webber. After narrowly losing the 2009 title to Jenson Button, Vettel proceeded to win the title four consecutive times, as Red Bull produced the clear best car four years running. While Webber offered a strong challenge in 2010, he was a distant competitor in following years. Overall, Vettel won the teammate duel 61-20 in counting races, 73-23 in qualifying, and 1410-947.5 in points.

In 2014, Vettel was thoroughly outclassed by Daniel Ricciardo — a result that some attribute to a poor season performance from Vettel, rather than a systematic performance advantage to Ricciardo.

Escaping Red Bull for a more comfortable number one driver role alongside Kimi Räikkönen at Ferrari, Vettel aimed to emulate his hero Michael Schumacher in taking Ferrari from a difficult position to championships. Overall, Vettel beat Räikkönen 48-19 in counting races, 56-22 in qualifying, and 1127-792 in points.

As a driver, Vettel is close to a complete package. He is a superb qualifier, able to deliver extremely fast and consistent race stints, a clever tactician, and capable in the wet although not particularly strong there. Yet, there is clearly one chink in the armor, which relates to Vettel’s race-craft and ability to handle direct pressure from another driver without making unforced errors. When able to control a race from the front, Vettel is indomitable. His run of 105 races (Turkey 2010 to Mexico 2015) without a crash-related DNF is the longest in F1 history, encompassing 44% of his starts. But it is a run that he has struggled to replicate in cars that infrequently compete for pole position and must battle wheel-to-wheel.

Stirling Moss
With good reason, Stirling Moss is often cited as the greatest non-champion driver in F1 history. Had his career not been cut short there by a devastating accident, Moss’ peak would have briefly intersected with Jim Clark’s, leading to perhaps one of the greatest driver rivalries in F1 history.

The only teammate that Moss could seemingly not better was the great Juan Manuel Fangio, to whom he lost 1-5 in counting races and 2-5 in qualifying. Notably, the losses in counting races included a race where Moss broke down and then took over another car, as well as the 1957 Argentine GP where Moss started from pole but had a very long pit-stop to fix a throttle linkage problem. Fangio’s slight edge over Moss, although from a small sample, cannot really be explained by age (Moss was 26) or by experience (Moss had raced in grands prix since 1948).

[chillibowl]

things are getting harder.

again for me, wins and titles take precedent. Vettee for me.

[Aysedasi]

Whereas for me, the heart rules. Moss.

[chillibowl]

i feel that!

as with some of these matchups, that i didnt see many of these drivers in their time, that i didnt get to live through the ups and downs of their best seasons certainly allows me to use my head and ignore my heart.

[Aysedasi]

Yep, I see that too. For me though, I have no recollection of seeing him race, although I probably did. My late Mum always used to tell me of an occasion at Goodwood where Stirling held me as a small child and put me in his car, although sadly I have no recollection of this! For me - and no doubt for many others, particularly Brits, he personified the top racer, supremely fast and a gent to boot. That he didn't amass titles and stats like Mr. Vettel was a matter of circumstance. For me it will always be 'Who do you think you are, Stirling Moss?'.....

[FIRE]

Moss

[Racing Harz]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Whereas for me, the heart rules. Moss.

Oh yes. I don´t like Vettel.

[Adam43]

I do like Vettel. He’s a decent guy.

He’s not a long in the memory legend like Moss. But I paused before clicking Moss just to check myself. And that is a compliment to Vettel.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I do like Vettel. He’s a decent guy.

He’s not a long in the memory legend like Moss. But I paused before clicking Moss just to check myself. And that is a compliment to Vettel.

I didn't I actually laughed when I saw the result as I thought I'd be the only one but am sticking to my guns to the end!!

But I do agree re: Seb.

[S griffin]

Moss could drive anything and make it fast. Vettel, despite his four titles, seems to struggle with cars not to his liking, although when the car suits him he's mega

[morninggents]

Again a difficult one. Vettel's more recent history went against him for me.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Again a difficult one. Vettel's more recent history went against him for me.

This is always a bit of a dilemma when it comes to drivers who have been really successful, but then faltered in later years.

We regularly talk about 'what ifs' for drivers with short careers - on the flip side, for some we do know what happened next.

Would Vettel (and perhaps Alonso) be considered as greater drivers if their careers had ended sooner?

[Aysedasi]

It's a fair point. If Vettel had done a Rosberg straight after his 4th title......? Nah, I liked him a lot less then than I do now......

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's a fair point. If Vettel had done a Rosberg straight after his 4th title......? Nah, I liked him a lot less then than I do now......

I know it's entirely hypothetical - but how would we view the 'greatness' of:

Ayrton Senna
'In 1995, narrowly loses to Schumacher in the race for WDC. Moves to Benneton and finishes fourth in 1996, 1997 before a lowly eleventh in 1998. Now in the Sauber team, he finishes no higher than eighth for the next few years, before being comfortably beaten by Diniz two seasons running and then retires.'

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I know it's entirely hypothetical - but how would we view the 'greatness' of:

Ayrton Senna
'In 1995, narrowly loses to Schumacher in the race for WDC. Moves to Benneton and finishes fourth in 1996, 1997 before a lowly eleventh in 1998. Now in the Sauber team, he finishes no higher than eighth for the next few years, before being comfortably beaten by Diniz two seasons running and then retires.'

Easy. It wouldn't have happened...... A man driven to win as Senna was wouldn't have plodded on.... IMO. As for being beaten in any scenario by Diniz, well.....

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I know it's entirely hypothetical - but how would we view the 'greatness' of:

Ayrton Senna
'In 1995, narrowly loses to Schumacher in the race for WDC. Moves to Benneton and finishes fourth in 1996, 1997 before a lowly eleventh in 1998. Now in the Sauber team, he finishes no higher than eighth for the next few years, before being comfortably beaten by Diniz two seasons running and then retires.'

Wow, that's some flight of fantasy! Have to agree with Aysedasi there.

[Gerard C]

I like Vettel. My vote is Moss.

[steve_r]

If this vote was held 3 or 4 years ago, then it would be closer surely? Vettel mk1 would be right up there with the best, but mk2 not so much.

[Born Racer]

Another dimension to this is the angle of versatility. Moss proved adept at jumping in a range of cars and winning. Vettel achieved a lot of success within a very defined period of rules. I'm letting that aid me in casting my vote for Moss.

On an unconnected note, I'm hoping Vettel goes well in the Aston this year.

[Adam43]

I would like to see that too. Interestingly that is more because I’d like to see Vettel do well than it is I’d lie, to see Aston do well!

[Aysedasi]

I'm all for Vettel finding his mojo again in the Aston. It's been sad to watch him over the last coupe of seasons.

[S griffin]

Vettel has no excuses this year. The team have said they will give him plenty of support, so if he still doesn't deliver, his career will no doubt be at an end