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View Poll Results: Worst Winner at Le Mans (overall) | |||
Bentley EXP Speed 8 | 11 | 18.33% | |
Dauer Porsche 962/GT1 | 32 | 53.33% | |
1952 Merc 300SL | 5 | 8.33% | |
1975 Mirage-Ford | 4 | 6.67% | |
1980 Rondeau | 5 | 8.33% | |
1991 Mazda 787 | 3 | 5.00% | |
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll |
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6 Jul 2005, 13:09 (Ref:1348743) | #26 | |||
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The car that won in 1980 was 5th fastest in practice, (its sister car driven by pesca was on pole) another Rondeau was 3rd. It was well driven, and had fewer problems than the 2nd place 936/908.80. The 379 also finished in the top 5 the year before, a later model the 379C finished 2nd & 3rd in 82, even in 83 when the 956 steamroller started one still got up to 10th. Far far from the worst car to ever win even if there is such a thing. |
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005 |
6 Jul 2005, 13:11 (Ref:1348746) | #27 | |||
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6 Jul 2005, 13:18 (Ref:1348752) | #28 | |||
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To finish first, one first has to finish! |
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005 |
6 Jul 2005, 13:24 (Ref:1348760) | #29 | |||
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Birmingham City FC. Founded 1875. League Cup Winners 2011. |
6 Jul 2005, 14:22 (Ref:1348801) | #30 | ||
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Well, I'm in a limbo, like people have said, "Le Mans corporate specials" really don't appeall to me, and, frankly the concept of the Dauer 962 appalls and excites me at the same time (Being a massive 956/962 fan)...so I'm in a bit of a twist...
Ahh, pfft, As Jim Richards said "It's not cheating if you get away with it", so that rules out the 962. And Brabs didn't win for Bently, if he had, it would've been okay. (What was that about Biased views?) |
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"Abe will be remembered as a fighter" - RIP Abe. |
6 Jul 2005, 15:07 (Ref:1348832) | #31 | |||
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Like you, I've always felt Brabs was one of the "good guys" and therefore whatever he drives is OK! |
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-- there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas |
6 Jul 2005, 18:14 (Ref:1348961) | #32 | |||
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I just don't follow that at all. Le Mans is about the car which covers the greatest distance in the 24 hours. As I recall, the winning Mazda in 91 covered a greater mileage thanm the winning Jag in 90........ |
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7 Jul 2005, 11:57 (Ref:1349505) | #33 | |||
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I think that it's true to say that bad cars simply don't win Le Mans, but I guess you can judge it on how many cars were better/faster that fell away from a given event and allowed another car to win. Although I have issues with the Dauer Porsche I don't think it was a 'bad' car - the car itself wasn't the 'worst winner' at Le Mans.
Candidates for me include the 1952 300SL and 1975 Gulf Mirage mentioned above, but also the Lagonda that won in 1935. Again, it wasn't a bad car, but it shouldn't have beaten the Alfas. If the chasing Alfa had been given the right pit signals towards the end it quite possibly would have won. I don't think that I'd count the '55 D-Type win as I think that it was as good, if not better than the 300SLR round Le Mans. Whether Hawthorn/Bueb would have been enough to see off the combination of Moss/Fangio is open to debate, of course, but the Jaguar would have been a factor. Quote:
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8 Jul 2005, 02:48 (Ref:1350070) | #34 | ||
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I don't know if I can buy into any of them. If you condem the Dauer as a rules trick, then you must also include the 917, which was built to what was meant to be a limited production GT class, and not a wicked prototype. The same can be said of the 935 Moby Dick, which while itself didn't win, helped spawn the Kremer 935 that did in '79 (the Kremer car being in ways more 'sedate' then the 935/78).
The NART Ferrari 250LM that won in 1965 started about as far back as the Mazda, didn't it? I think if you win, you chose the correct weapon for the task. You had a team that worked, a car that worked, a driver combo that worked, and you had luck. What proportions those apply may vary. robert btw, I am such a sarcastic SOB that it has taken all the restraint in the world to avoid starting a thread about the car you were most ambivilent about that performed well, or some such. |
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8 Jul 2005, 07:53 (Ref:1350152) | #35 | ||
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I'm in the 'If it won it's not a bad car camp'. The almost unprecedented combination of reliability and metronomic speed of the R8s has changed the character of Le Mans somewhat. In previous years; luck, driver skill, reliability and outright speed had a more equal effect on the outcome. Some great drivers and cars won deservedly, some should have done but didn't. But the winner of Le Mans is quite simple, the car still running at the end that has covered the most distance. Therefore any car that wins deserves to do so.
Okay off my soap box. I'm going to be reallly controversial now, how about the GT40 of Ickx/Olivier in 1969? An old car, not the fastest and only won because the magnificent 917 of Elford stopped when laps in the lead and the 908 had problems when otherwise it would have won. Don't worry, I'm not reallly going bonkers, but it does show how any car can be described as good or bad depending on your view. |
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8 Jul 2005, 14:48 (Ref:1350341) | #36 | ||
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Funnily enough I thought of that, but I reckon that would be a different thread. The GT40 wasn't a 'bad' car, obviously, but in terms of winning races that the car shouldn't have, the '69 Le Mans win is right up there. Of course, it did have the advantage of being run by the best team in the business, and the drivers weren't too shabby either!
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8 Jul 2005, 18:53 (Ref:1350473) | #37 | ||
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even though it is one of my favourites, i would say the ferrari 375 plus shouldn't have beaten the d-types in 1954, but it did somehow if only by a minute or so. the fact the race was run in pouring rain should have played into the jags hands even more, with their monocoque chassis and disk brakes up against the ferrari's ladder chassis and drum brakes. the only advantage the ferrari had was a monstrous engine pushing it down the straights.
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8 Jul 2005, 19:27 (Ref:1350523) | #38 | ||
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I liked the Bentley, irrespective of its origin or what it actually was. It looked great! For similar reasons I liked the Toyota too - I never thought I'd want a Toyota to win Le Mans (alas it didn't)!
On the topic - every car that won deserved it. You can argue against a lot of them. The Mazda had a weight break. The Dauer a class break - although having it in the race made the race! etc. Some have won because others have failed. Or the rules changed. etc However they still won Le Mans! They are great cars. |
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8 Jul 2005, 21:38 (Ref:1350626) | #39 | ||
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I voted for the Dauer, thought the Toyota deserved it that year especially as it had the name of Roland Ratzenberger on the side as he was signed to drive it.
Think the Bentley criticism is harsh, never was a rebadged Audi, the engine and money may be Audis, but the transmission was not the same and the car was developed and built in England. |
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8 Jul 2005, 21:50 (Ref:1350629) | #40 | |
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the peugeot in 1992, because there was hardly any competition left in the WSC, thanks to the white haired gerbil of motorsport who has now gone on to destroy what was called formula one.
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In the McLaren pit i was startled by a major technological innovation for the British Grand Prix, Marlboro was to be spellt M-C-L-A-R-E-N... |
8 Jul 2005, 22:38 (Ref:1350650) | #41 | |||
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Now that has to be the best description I've heard in a long time. Thanks. |
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44 days... |
9 Jul 2005, 09:47 (Ref:1350930) | #42 | ||||
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9 Jul 2005, 10:03 (Ref:1350947) | #43 | ||
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A good thread indeed with many interesting and erudite contributions - hey, well done guys!
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9 Jul 2005, 19:37 (Ref:1351290) | #44 | |||
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I've always been suprised by reports of the time, which said that the Ferrari's drums were pretty much as good as the Jag discs in '54. I believe that they were developed from the GP cars, and I suppose that the discs were newish on the D-Type (though C-type had used them to win in '53). It certainly wasn't the best car to win Le Mans, but I don't think it was quite the worst either. |
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10 Jul 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1351553) | #45 | |
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Non of them. Especially not the DAUER 962 either.
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10 Jul 2005, 10:50 (Ref:1351555) | #46 | ||
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Why especially?
I say especially so the Dauer....... |
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44 days... |
10 Jul 2005, 12:57 (Ref:1351582) | #47 | ||||
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Oops |
10 Jul 2005, 18:00 (Ref:1351929) | #48 | |||
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10 Jul 2005, 18:21 (Ref:1351942) | #49 | |
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the thing is, is ANY car made entirely out of one nations parts and run by one nation these days?......the Bently romp was obviously Audi organised (maybe not as disguised R8s, but just look at the rear wings on them), the toyota "we're gonna win without winning" GT1s were chiefed by a Dane, and the Mercedes Group C effort was run by the Swiss conglomerate who in the past have been Ferrari's Gimp in F1.
if there has been one, your looking at the ferrari efforts of the early 70s am i right? |
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In the McLaren pit i was startled by a major technological innovation for the British Grand Prix, Marlboro was to be spellt M-C-L-A-R-E-N... |
10 Jul 2005, 19:25 (Ref:1351975) | #50 | |||
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