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27 Oct 2016, 18:13 (Ref:3683428) | #4576 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 207
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If either Toyota or Porsche quite, we are back to 1992 all over again. That does somewhat show, how clever the ACO really are |
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27 Oct 2016, 18:29 (Ref:3683430) | #4577 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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Should be try. Maybe something like LMP 900 and LMP 675. Also could be used to control the costs of hybrid cars giving more advantages to non-hybrids if you see these costs go haywire as now.
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27 Oct 2016, 19:36 (Ref:3683443) | #4578 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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Rebellion ran at 800kg a year or two ago, it didn't help. They need more development, and power, better aero and low weight. If the ACO decide to let a lightweight car in, they'll need to balance it with a fuel flow or something so that the hybrid or alternative fueled cars are still worth it. They're not just going to drop that from their rules. Porsche and Toyota are here because that's what they want. Better to keep on the current path with reduced costs than to alienate who you have now hoping someone likes your new rules.
And to all those who think one of the remaining two factories will just up and quit, Porsche have committed to at least 2018, Toyota the same. By then there should be new lmp1 manufacturer's joining, you'd think. If not then the ACO will have an issue. But not many made a big fuss when it was just Audi vs Peugeot with 4, 5 second per lap slower Aston Martin. Now Audi leaves because their financial troubles and it's doom and gloom again. I think and hope by this time next year we have another factory announced. |
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27 Oct 2016, 20:46 (Ref:3683455) | #4579 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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Quote:
We are also talking about even less weight (780 or perhaps 750 Kg). Also you can always adjust the power of the engine. I do not think like you, I would like an opening regulation for factory cars no hybrids. The duel between the Porsche RS Spyder and the Audi R10 in the ALMS it was better than current WEC races. |
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27 Oct 2016, 21:51 (Ref:3683463) | #4580 | ||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
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27 Oct 2016, 22:17 (Ref:3683465) | #4581 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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27 Oct 2016, 23:20 (Ref:3683473) | #4582 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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Quote:
In my point of view a low cost LMP1 alternative could be a fantastic option for the factorys, and could be very helpful to a new withdrawal of Porsche or Toyota |
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28 Oct 2016, 03:09 (Ref:3683515) | #4583 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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It's ironic that he says that but there's reports that Peugeot wanted the 3 hybrid systems. Who knows what it really is but I don't see the rules changing on the hybrid aspect for manufacturer teams.
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28 Oct 2016, 12:22 (Ref:3683600) | #4584 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,396
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Spending with hybrid systems will shoot Peugeot in the foot by themselves! If ACO wants hybrid systems in LMP1 without hurting the manufacturer's budget, have they suggested to use off-the-shelf parts?
Otherwise, who needs hybrid systems in the first place. Honestly, I think the system is somewhat matured in the consumer market. |
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28 Oct 2016, 17:06 (Ref:3683657) | #4585 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,550
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It seems like someone at Motorsport.com has been looking at this forum as they are talking about a new form of LMP1 with reduced hybrid.
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/o...r-lmp1-843545/ |
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28 Oct 2016, 17:35 (Ref:3683662) | #4586 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
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Well if they dumb down LMP1, Porsche will have little or no interest in continuing. With GTE being a BoP crap-shoot, Sportscar racing will loose all of its luster for me.
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28 Oct 2016, 18:08 (Ref:3683672) | #4587 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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Bunch of assumptions in that article. The funny thing is that most of the media is trying to spin this as Audi left because F-E is cheaper and it's more relevant. In actuality it's the VW group's huge fines and the ruined image of diesel. The huge budget issue in lmp1 was something basically introduced by the VW group participants.
When the ACO drops relevant tech like hybrids (which you can get on the street for $30k), big manufacturer's won't be interested. Smaller teams will be. But they don't bring in the big views and the headlines. Hybrids aren't the problem. It's stuff like slowing the cars down through restricted development areas. That's the problem F1 has. One team wrote the rules for the current engine formula, and it's an all Mercedes show. Lmp1 needs to go the opposite route. Lightweight could be good, but other freedoms should be granted so the competition isn't focused only on things like front wing flaps or diffuser shapes. |
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28 Oct 2016, 23:48 (Ref:3683741) | #4588 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 596
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Can the WEC be considered an "investment" for factory teams in LMP1-H? With all this talk about technology being transferred to the street and all the marketing involved, if it does work like an investment that is going to pay off, then why teams would complain so much about high costs? Taking Audi as an example, was it all worth it?
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"Every Le Mans, the car which wins Le Mans is the best car." - Tom Kristensen |
29 Oct 2016, 01:38 (Ref:3683751) | #4589 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
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Audi is a special case. VAG diesels have fallen out of favour so it is no longer worth investing in that technology, while Porsche is already doing petrol hybrid technology for VAG. Without the diesel part they may as well just go to Formula E and focus on the electric component until there is some new option in LMP1.
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30 Oct 2016, 08:01 (Ref:3683973) | #4590 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,209
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1 Nov 2016, 16:08 (Ref:3684576) | #4591 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
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RCE's take on LMP1 now, and what it probably should be going forward:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...ms-at-le-mans/ |
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1 Nov 2016, 21:13 (Ref:3684630) | #4592 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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1 Nov 2016, 22:21 (Ref:3684637) | #4593 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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I have a feeling Toyota and Porsche wouldn't be in the wec if there was no incentive to running a hybrid car. They could just do GTE if that were the case.
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1 Nov 2016, 22:41 (Ref:3684639) | #4594 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
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Over the past few days, I've grown more and more dissatisfied with the motorsports landscape. Series becoming more and more spec, or being dominated with one way to do things to ensure success. Series becoming fashionable rather than relevant, series being too expensive for their ROI returns and how many fans they attract. And racing series relying on gimmicks vs actual racing.
To me, over the past 5-6 years, racing has lost a lot of what drew me into it in the first place. Maybe racing just isn't the sport for me anymore. |
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1 Nov 2016, 23:01 (Ref:3684644) | #4595 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
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Personally, I'd have kept the 2012/13 rules, where hybrids weren't mandatory and you didn't need one if you were a factory team to compete. Of course, I'd have also kept air restrictors, 2000mm wide cars, and stuff like that.
That's what I actually miss about the LMP900/first gen LMP1 era. The initial costs for a factory team program are high, because you're starting from scratch. But the longer the basic rules stay the same, the less it costs to compete because there's a self-policing cost cap, and it takes longer for a vehicle to become obsolescent. Why did the Audi R8 win races until literally it's last day on track? Why were the Porsche 956/962 series, designed originally in 1981, still winning races into the early 1990's? Of course, I'm not in favor of excessively favoring a technical approach because a sanctioning body wants to push an agenda. That's a big part of why the WEC is where it is now, with hardly any privateer teams in LMP1, and the longest standing supporter of the class (and it's past equivalents) for the past 30 year period pulling out. I'm also not in favor of the full DPI concept of mandating spec or a spec choice of chassis, spec engines or stock block only engines, or a spec hybrid system. You can say what you want about WSC prototypes, LMP900, and first gen LMP1, but relative to today in terms of different engine configurations, the cars looking very different, the customer car market, you were spoiled for choice compared to LMP1 of today. Yeah, what I'm advocating is going backwards, but sometimes, you have to rationalize and simplify if it opens things up, yet bring costs down and get people interested in joining in. |
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2 Nov 2016, 01:45 (Ref:3684671) | #4596 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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Quote:
I think it is very positive the departure of AUDI and the rumors of the Porsche exit in 2018 because the ACO finally have to allow factory non-hybrid LMP1 and like racecar-engineering say a lot of programs could be possible. Peugeot, Nissan, Alpine, Rebellion, Strakka, Glickenhaus, BR or even a Joest R18 non-hybrid with gasoline engine could be possible if the cost is rational. |
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2 Nov 2016, 02:45 (Ref:3684673) | #4597 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,394
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The article also says that those programs are possible today! No one is entering in the wec even with those rules open for private teams to make a very competitive car. It's not because of the rules. It's because no one wants to put up the money to do it. But if you look, you can see there's a possibility that someone does it.
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2 Nov 2016, 03:17 (Ref:3684674) | #4598 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,920
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2 Nov 2016, 08:05 (Ref:3684691) | #4599 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 612
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I think Porsche showed more than enough what pace can be achived with defective hybrid system and 8 MJ class fuel flow.
Max manufacturer effort on current LMP-L regulations would blow out any top 8 MJ class hybrid. |
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2 Nov 2016, 09:46 (Ref:3684703) | #4600 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,396
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Reading RCE's latest article on the LMP1 class makes me want to see it revamped.
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