[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Articus

Toyota don't need Lotterer. They have Davidson.

They might need a slightly faster car though!

None of the factory lineups strike me as comprehensively worse than any of the others, although I do think Toyota have brought their best 3 drivers into the same car which I would say is not the case for Audi or Porsche.

Now if we're going to play Fantasy WEC and restrict ourselves to one from each factory, Lotterer-Buemi-Jani would be my choice. Pick it apart guys

[Artur]

Originally Posted by J Jay

However the VAG bros seem to have the extremes of pace covered between them so I think it will take more than good tyre wear (because you can bet that Audi won't be poor on tyre wear at the very least) for the TS040 to fight back.

Even Porsche double stinted, didn't they? Michelin develops special tyres for each car, but it seems everybody can do over 1 and half hour in a single set

I guess the biggest problem for Toyota is that the engineers on TMG have a much reduced budged, compared to the VAG guys, or at least that's what I heard

But Silverstone really isn't a good indicator for TS040. They lack too much downforce to Audi, but that won't be a significant issue at Le Mans(Porsche curves are just small part of the lap and the long straights are much more important). It's said that the supercapacitor is much improved and they likely developed aero only to reduce drag.

The most worrying thing is really Davidson's interview. He sounds and seems downbeat and Toyota doesn't seem to be the best car in any department at all, right now.

[TF110]

Dont read too much into it. Davidson was disappointed, like anyone who came third would be. But if theyre only working with 'half' their power, not much you can do about it. Some are seemingly overlooking that fact. There aren't an abundance of hard braking areas, thats what Toyota relies on for their hybrid power.

And there is definitely strong points for the Toyota. They dont have a continuous hybrid boost, but they were doing 280+kmh during the race. The fact they were the first to double stint is good because the drivers have confidence in the car even though they had to push hard. The qualifying pace is great too. An ideal lap only half a second off the best ideal lap of Porsche at their weakest track doesn't mean they are in trouble. They hit 334.4kmh during the prologue while Porsche did 338.6kmh! This season is just going to be closer. Not worried that Toyota is off pace. I take Davidson's comments as a sign that the capacitor is on its way out.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TF110

Dont read too much into it. Davidson was disappointed, like anyone who came third would be. But if theyre only working with 'half' their power, not much you can do about it. Some are seemingly overlooking that fact. There aren't an abundance of hard braking areas, thats what Toyota relies on for their hybrid power.

And there is definitely strong points for the Toyota. They dont have a continuous hybrid boost, but they were doing 280+kmh during the race. The fact they were the first to double stint is good because the drivers have confidence in the car even though they had to push hard. The qualifying pace is great too. An ideal lap only half a second off the best ideal lap of Porsche at their weakest track doesn't mean they are in trouble. They hit 334.4kmh during the prologue while Porsche did 338.6kmh! This season is just going to be closer. Not worried that Toyota is off pace. I take Davidson's comments as a sign that the capacitor is on its way out.

I quite agree with your summary of the current situation, however it does show that the "1:36" rumor that was circulating at the prologue was BS.
They may have done it, but not with the fuel flow limits . If that is the case, it is meaningless.

[Gingers4Justice]

As for Toyota, one thing I've learned from Davidson's post-race interviews is that he really wears his heart on his sleeve. Silverstone really doesn't suit the TS040 and they were lucky to win last year. He may be disappointed to see that they've lost their advantage, but I don't expect them to be third best every race this season. Not in the slightest.

TF110's right, it was the words of a very competitive driver disappointed to come third.

[Adam43]

A dream line up thread split off to here to give it a chance to grow and not disrupt this thread:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144055

[Hiro]

I think, for one year Davidson quite easily managed to win most races so he may be a little shocked facing a real battle at Silverstone. At Spa, they are okay and ready to fight to win the real battle.

[Acid09]

What dosen't add up for me is that Toyota people kept saying they expected Porsche & Audi to be this strong in Ricard.

So how can this be shocking news to the drivers then?

[flyingshoppingcart]

Yes Davidson may certainly be wearing his heart on his sleeve. However that doesn't fully explain the comments from all the other drivers from Toyota's PR, where they don't sound full of utmost confidence for Spa.

Originally Posted by Acid09

What dosen't add up for me is that Toyota people kept saying they expected Porsche & Audi to be this strong in Ricard.

So how can this be shocking news to the drivers then?

I agree it doesn't add up. I think the surprise for Toyota is not how strong Porsche and Audi were, since that matched up to their expectations. I think the real reason for disappointment is that the TS040 didn't perform as well as Toyota themselves had hoped. Maybe Toyota believed tire wear would play a larger role in the race, and overestimated this point?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I quite agree with your summary of the current situation, however it does show that the "1:36" rumor that was circulating at the prologue was BS.
They may have done it, but not with the fuel flow limits . If that is the case, it is meaningless.

I think it could be true. Porsche was capable of a 1:37.2 there. Their Silverstone best sectors added up to a 1:39.2xx. Toyota's added up to a 1:39.7xx. So about a half second on their worst track. They know Ricard as well as anyone and can use all their boost if they please. So it certainly sounds likely a 1:36 is within reach.

Originally Posted by Acid09

What dosen't add up for me is that Toyota people kept saying they expected Porsche & Audi to be this strong in Ricard.

So how can this be shocking news to the drivers then?

Who was shocked? I think they were more disappointed, but thats to be expected. Spa should be a different story, you think?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think it could be true. Porsche was capable of a 1:37.2 there. Their Silverstone best sectors added up to a 1:39.2xx. Toyota's added up to a 1:39.7xx. So about a half second on their worst track. They know Ricard as well as anyone and can use all their boost if they please. So it certainly sounds likely a 1:36 is within reach.



Who was shocked? I think they were more disappointed, but thats to be expected. Spa should be a different story, you think?

You are certainly entitled to believe what you wish. The rumor as quoted by Hindy was that they were a full second faster than the 1:37.2 that Porsche set. That means that they needed to improve on their "theoretical" time of 1:39.2 by 2seconds.
Based on the pace that they showed in Silverstone, I simply don't believe it.
If they show a much improved pace at Spa (and I think that they will) then the rumor becomes slightly more plausible.
To me, it only becomes believable however, if their straight-line speed exceeds or matches that of Porsche.

[TzeiTzei]

Ever since the prologue started I had been waiting for Toyota to drop the sandbags and go for it. Then came Silverstone, and nothing really happened. I never saw the speed I expected from them. Qualifying was sort of okay, I would expect Porsche to take most poles this year, but the race pace wasn't any better. Especially compared to Audi.

I've been thinking about Spa. Does it really suit the supercapasitor that much better than Silverstone? I have no facts to back me up, but aren't the only proper braking zones at the end and start of the lap? Would the lack of slow corners make it difficult for Toyota to use electric boost in sector 3? I have no idea

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Ever since the prologue started I had been waiting for Toyota to drop the sandbags and go for it.

I suspect you will have to wait until Le Mans.

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I've been thinking about Spa. Does it really suit the supercapasitor that much better than Silverstone? I have no facts to back me up, but aren't the only proper braking zones at the end and start of the lap? Would the lack of slow corners make it difficult for Toyota to use electric boost in sector 3? I have no idea

Breaking at the end of Kemmel straight and into Les Combes is quite intense too. They have to slow from ~315 down to ~ 120-130. Breaking into turn 6 (Bruxelles) is also quite strong after that little straight.

[GasperG]

Ok even if Spa is better for kinetic regeen, that means that Porsche and Audi will also gain more kinetic energy. True Toyota is the only to have 6MJ only from brakes, but I wonder what is Porsche share in their total 8 MJ for kinetic recuperation? 5 MJ?

I think everyone will gain at Spa, but will Toyota really gain more than others? Even if it does IMO difference will be minimal.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Porsche: Recouping from front brakes and exhaust
Toyota: Front and rear brakes
Audi: Front brakes only? Didnt they ditch the turbo harvesting (F1 like) last season and never used it again?

[GasperG]

Another thing puzzles me, lets say every car brakes with max force (1000+ HP) as late as possible, this gives all the cars same amount of TIME to recuperate with their rated el. motor power, friction brakes do the rest.

These are based on el. motor power not regeneration, but roughly I think those two thing are equal:
Toyota - 480 HP
Porsche - more than 400 HP
Audi - more than 272 HP

Recuperating only on one axle or two axles doesn't mean much as long as brake power is over the rated el. motor power on that axle. Strictly from the numbers Porsche is definitely in the range of 5-6 MJ from brakes alone. I do wonder if that low power rating from Audi is correct or all the others exaggerate?

Maybe Porsche can chose how much MGU-H gives depending on the track layout to always get rated MJ. This may result in less engine efficiency, but nothing is thrown away, because it's used as electric boost out of the corner and this gives you greater benefit.

Toyota could also do this (maybe they are?), running regen on the rear axle at times they don't need max engine power (long curves) and deploy that energy out of the corners. If regen efficiency is high enough this may be worth it.

[J Jay]

I remember an article that said the 2015 R18 could put down up to 1100hp but I'll be damned if I can find it now. Even though the 4L V6 turbo-diesel must be putting out figures close to the 5.5L V12 twin-turbo monsters by now I don't think it could be making up the entire shortfall (e.g. 1100 - 272 = 828hp). So maybe those motors are a bit more powerful than Audi are letting on.

[GasperG]

I got all the numbers from manufacturers official sites.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by GasperG

I got all the numbers from manufacturers official sites.

basically the worst place to find reliable and genuine values
because of fuel flows, power output from the toyota/audi/porsche ICEs should be in a range of 550-600hp. More likely close to 550hp to me.
It doesn't exist a real "max combined power" it's all about how much energy and how long this energy is released.

[GasperG]

Note that those are not ICE power numbers but hybrid power.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Note that those are not ICE power numbers but hybrid power.

It doesn't matter, the electric engines and hardware and devices to make them work are the top of technology and each manufacturer keeps in secret all possible info about that. So, forget about those values you've read reflect the truth.

[Starfish Primer]

My feeling at the track last sunday was they had problems with the car balance exiting the curves, they had understeer and went long many times. I expect them to be strong again at Spa.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

You are certainly entitled to believe what you wish. The rumor as quoted by Hindy was that they were a full second faster than the 1:37.2 that Porsche set. That means that they needed to improve on their "theoretical" time of 1:39.2 by 2seconds.
Based on the pace that they showed in Silverstone, I simply don't believe it.
If they show a much improved pace at Spa (and I think that they will) then the rumor becomes slightly more plausible.
To me, it only becomes believable however, if their straight-line speed exceeds or matches that of Porsche.

I read the post on the facebook page, he didnt say a full second faster. He only mentioned Toyota did a 1:36 in testing. Unless he elaborated further in another post. Going off Silverstone's pace for a gauge of their ultimate performance is misleading. Last season they were about a second per lap faster than the competition at most races. But at Silverstone, Audi was just as fast. So why would we expect that to be representative?

Spa is better but still not the best track for regenerative braking. Places like Fuji suit them. ~320kmh to a 2nd gear turn 1, the hairpin after 100r, dunlop and panasonic corner are all great braking areas. Silverstone has high or medium speed turns after braking areas. I can only see two corners on the track thatd favor the Toyota. That would be Villiage corner and Vale. Maybe brooklands, but thats still a 3rd gear turn. If you look at Paul Ricard, it would suit Toyota as well. Turns 1 2 and 3, the end of the mistral, turn 7 and 10 all have heavy braking.

[Adam43]

I expect more of this now they don't have a car advantage.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

My feeling at the track last sunday was they had problems with the car balance exiting the curves, they had understeer and went long many times. I expect them to be strong again at Spa.

Not sure I noticed big understeer, but I did think the Toyota looked more on edge at Silverstone than the others. Moving around more in the turns. The Audi was very impressive, nothing dramatic from Porsche and noticeably slower through the turns.