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Old 18 Oct 2018, 20:40 (Ref:3857634)   #6001
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
The universal reason is cost. In the three past widthdrawls excluding the half-assed program put up by Nissan costs were at least a partial reason.

PSA didn't axe WRC Citroen program, because it was cheaper especially compared to the past results, cost was at least a partial reason for Audi and the same for Porsche, but more from an ROI point of view.
Agreed, so now the Hybrid hype has passed and the tech matured somewhat, why not offer everyone (mandate?) an off the shelf hybrid solution?

Even now, there is not THAT much wrong with the current P1 ruleset when the likes of Rebellion and SMP are getting to within a second a lap of the Toyo's?

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Old 18 Oct 2018, 22:12 (Ref:3857643)   #6002
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Peugeot to quit WRX and "offer its customers a range of high-performance, low-emission electrified sports vehicles from 2020". And their friends from ACO/FIA have reduced costs recently down to 20m. Hmm.
However, they seem to use the uncertainty of WRX's electric future as a reason, so I don't see how this would immediately result in interest in Le Mans.

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After presenting its new generation of Plug-In-Hybrid vehicles as part of its electrification strategy at the Paris Motor Show, Peugeot announces the development of a new range of electrified sports vehicles from 2020.

The Peugeot brand will concentrate its resources on developing these new vehicles & has therefore decided to withdraw from the FIA World Rallycross Championship at the end of the 2018 season, whose evolution towards electrification is uncertain.
Originally it was announced that the WRX top class would go fully electric in 2020, then in August it was postponed to 2021. The original date always sounded pretty ambitious date and now that VW is only OEM left it is probably getting another re-think.
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Old 19 Oct 2018, 07:07 (Ref:3857682)   #6003
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I'm hopeful some of the stringent things mentioned will be relaxed. Performance windows is one thing, but having every car at the exact same power, weight, aero figures etc. is not what a top class should be in a world championship or at Le Mans. I want to see a car with a higher top speed or a car with slightly better fuel efficiency or a car with higher cornering speeds. Cars should have their own characteristics but still be close on pace without all having the same exact type of performance. At least we should get unique engines, hopefully. 700hp is a good target, but I think they should be opened up a little so that that number is flexible. 980kg is pretty dumb too imo. 880kg is a much better number and is definitely doable. That'd help with efficiency/fuel economy which is what they want to portray anyway.
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Old 19 Oct 2018, 22:58 (Ref:3857826)   #6004
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I'm hopeful some of the stringent things mentioned will be relaxed. Performance windows is one thing, but having every car at the exact same power, weight, aero figures etc. is not what a top class should be in a world championship or at Le Mans.
I really hope I'm mistaken, but with fixed power output and L/D ratio they've got a prototype version of modern DTM. It looks like racing but it is not far away from motorised wrestling. And this makes Advertising departments happy today. I'd like to be wrong, but all that variability of engines and looks are only for advertising purposes. The only engineering sense I see - it's just reliability and fuel efficiency of different engine types. I don't think they will be allowed to bring wide range of chassis or engine "characters".
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Old 20 Oct 2018, 04:28 (Ref:3857865)   #6005
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I really hope I'm mistaken, but with fixed power output and L/D ratio they've got a prototype version of modern DTM. It looks like racing but it is not far away from motorised wrestling. And this makes Advertising departments happy today. I'd like to be wrong, but all that variability of engines and looks are only for advertising purposes. The only engineering sense I see - it's just reliability and fuel efficiency of different engine types. I don't think they will be allowed to bring wide range of chassis or engine "characters".
QFT

As soon as series CEOs start listening to marketing departments more than concentrating on their own thing, this kind of thing happens. Of course it's not helped by the fact that we've slowly been neutered to the state where these kind of thing is the "norm" in racing rather than exception. For example modern BoP only debuted 15 years ago, mandated pro-am in just half of that, but now they're taken granted because that's what expected. You could say the same for heavy testing limits, tech freeze, cost cap, "trophies for all", spec tires and mandated component specness as whole, certainly outside club and single make series and say Grand-Am wrestling they weren't there really ever a thing even by late last decade. Masqueraded badge engineering and gimmick-technology obviously has existed longer, but in the past never quite in this volume... And not mandated.
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Old 22 Oct 2018, 16:27 (Ref:3858451)   #6006
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"McLaren ‘highly unlikely’ to enter WEC's new top class in 2020"

https://www.crash.net/sportscars/new...enter-wec-2020

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While Brown confirmed McLaren was “very much” still part of these discussions, when asked by Crash.net about plans for a WEC entry in 2020, he said it was unlikely to happen.

“I don’t think we would be ready for the first year of the new championship,” Brown said.

“It is under review. The rules have not been finalised. We have a sense of what they are and we are very engaged.

“We have a working group inside McLaren that are not on our Formula 1 activities reviewing it, and I believe the rules are going to be put in place by the end of the year.

“Then we’ll be in a position to take a decision if we’re going to enter and when we would enter.

“But highly unlikely it would be for the start of the 2020 calendar.”
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Old 22 Oct 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3858472)   #6007
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"McLaren ‘highly unlikely’ to enter WEC's new top class in 2020"

https://www.crash.net/sportscars/new...enter-wec-2020
Not a huge surprise. What will be of more interest is who does commit. Right now I'm not seeing too many obvious takers.
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Old 22 Oct 2018, 18:42 (Ref:3858487)   #6008
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Not a huge surprise. What will be of more interest is who does commit. Right now I'm not seeing too many obvious takers.
It sounded like timing was the issue. They are still involved in the process and interested in the class, but getting a program together for 2020 seems like the kicker.
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Old 22 Oct 2018, 21:32 (Ref:3858505)   #6009
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It sounded like timing was the issue. They are still involved in the process and interested in the class, but getting a program together for 2020 seems like the kicker.
That's how I took it as well, might take an extra year or two before they enter a car. I think we'll see that before a DPi or even a GTD McLaren sadly for us with IMSA events
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 04:06 (Ref:3858546)   #6010
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Well, it's better than saying "we're not interested".
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 04:37 (Ref:3858548)   #6011
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Or "our lobbying attempts weren't successful enough"

In any case it's surprising as they've been the biggest vocal activists of "road car looking Le Mans headliner class" for like the last 7 or 8 years or so, in fact other General Motors (DP-rebrand/DPi-rebrand/ill-fated-Corvette-EVO)I don't think there's been other OEM so adamant of wanting branding styling cues in prototypes. To others it's hasn't really mattered at all as bargaining ship, I mean they take it if offered but it's not what drives them

It'll be a pity if the new top category becomes your standard BoP class even partially because of the road car shape factor, you know if it's not even the priority of manufacturers initially committing to it

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Old 23 Oct 2018, 06:01 (Ref:3858552)   #6012
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I have some faith that it will be even in competition without the need for bop. If they are going to be doing a performance window for the amount of downforce and power that sounds like a better idea than bop'ing the cars every race. The things getting to me are the extremely high weight compared to now and the forced use of hybrids. Not really a fan of the wide cockpit either, especially if they keep the 1900mm width.
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 07:40 (Ref:3858558)   #6013
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My faith would be higher, had they not messed up relatively simple technical regulations in recent past already... and in any case tech freeze is possibly even worse

Anyway, if the hydrogen / zero emission becomes reality and is not too far away from (the projected pace of) LMGTP or whatever this thing's gonna be called, then there will eventually be actual alternative for hybrids and not just for marketing reasons...? Assuming that the ZE isn't killing of GTP altogether (wouldn't mind that from what we've seen so far)

Of course, the privateers will be out of luck in that regard, and if/when LMP2 / it's follow-up stays sterile quasi spec cartel class and the current LMP1 nonhybrids are phased out to non-existence, your only option will be the costly hybrid if you wish to stay near top

So how are the prototype classes looking up then...

Le Mans 2019
LMP1
LMP2

Le Mans 2020
LMP1
LMP2

Le Mans 2021
LMGTP
(LMP1-NH phase out?)
LMP2

Le Mans 2022
LMGTP
(LMP2?)
(G56 Hydrogen Audi?)

Le Mans 2023
LMGTP
(LMP2?)

Le Mans 2024
LMGTP
(LMPH/ZE?)
(LMP2?)

Also "new" LMP3 extends to 2024 but they're probably still out from the big show

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Old 23 Oct 2018, 07:54 (Ref:3858560)   #6014
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I have some faith that it will be even in competition without the need for bop. If they are going to be doing a performance window for the amount of downforce and power that sounds like a better idea than bop'ing the cars every race.
And what happens when one car exceeds those maximum limits... they'll getting somehow handicapped.
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 18:24 (Ref:3858679)   #6015
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And what happens when one car exceeds those maximum limits... they'll getting somehow handicapped.
They'll have to be policing them somehow. My guess is that they have a performance window where they say a car can be 700hp weigh 980kg make 1600kg of max downforce and have a l/d ratio in a set range. Maybe if it's in the high range of drag coefficient they reduce the power to 680hp? It'll be interesting to see how they do it. Hopefully it's a one time job and there's no constant tinkering.
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 18:53 (Ref:3858686)   #6016
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How on Earth could it be one-time job...?

Also, with LM now as season finale, everyone will likely sandbag their way through the entire season from September to Free Practice in June in order not to get killed off in the one race that matters, you know instead of only sandbagging in one or two events

Well at least with the first season, if the stupid tech freeze prevents people from developing cars further that is (without EVO kit)
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 19:30 (Ref:3858699)   #6017
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How on Earth could it be one-time job...?

Also, with LM now as season finale, everyone will likely sandbag their way through the entire season from September to Free Practice in June in order not to get killed off in the one race that matters, you know instead of only sandbagging in one or two events

Well at least with the first season, if the stupid tech freeze prevents people from developing cars further that is (without EVO kit)
Yeah, I have to agree there, especially with LM at the end of the season. Seems to be a recipe for sandbagging and a TERRIBLE WEC season every year. It will be constant "tanking for the first pick in the draft" from every team trying to worse last. The reverse of F1 qaulifying, you want to be the last out but to set the worst times and get the most Mario kart speedboosters after.
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 20:43 (Ref:3858721)   #6018
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It does speak of homologation though, and the current ruleset has a clause in it to penalize teams who deliberately give false numbers. So you could sandbag in the tests but then you'd just have constant stop/go penalties in the race.
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 22:41 (Ref:3858746)   #6019
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It does speak of homologation though, and the current ruleset has a clause in it to penalize teams who deliberately give false numbers. So you could sandbag in the tests but then you'd just have constant stop/go penalties in the race.
Sounds like they are using the general idea of bracket racing in drag racing. Set your lap time and you're penalized for breaking your previous best
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 22:48 (Ref:3858747)   #6020
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Right, there's penalties now for misleading on your pace. Combined with that I think the ACO will be there to monitor how the teams go in testing. My guess is they'll have to be privy on that information to see what the cars are capable of. Dyno the cars, have windtunnel and/or cfd info, see testing times etc. That's why it's a performance window. I don't know how or what they'll do but it has to be something of the sort I mentioned in order for it to be fair and for it to work.
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Old 24 Oct 2018, 21:42 (Ref:3858984)   #6021
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Vasselon interview:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...gulations.html

No new info besides these figures:

Quote:
“But, to give an example, the maximum engine power will be 520 kW. This has to be obtained with a BSFC* of 230 which is easy to achieve so it will not be necessary to spend a lot of money to get an engine capable of providing a reliable 520 kW.

“With aero it is the same, the new regulations set a level of aero efficiency of ‘4’, the current car is at 6.5! Again it is relatively simple to achieve the level that will be mandated in the new regulations with a couple of good guys. Of course, you can have 20 people working on it, but it will not buy you an advantage!
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Old 25 Oct 2018, 09:41 (Ref:3859064)   #6022
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GasperG has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
230 g/kWh is around 36% Efficiency, anyone building an engine in a shed can achieve this.

OK, so performance is the same, but what about stint length? Will there be a benefit in running more efficient engine because it uses less fuel?
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Old 25 Oct 2018, 12:13 (Ref:3859087)   #6023
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There's a mathematical formula to easily calculate fuel efficiency, useful to get an indicative value.
Can't recall it now, but right here some time ago me and other users calculated f.e. of f1 and lmp1 engines. If memory helps me porsche and toyota ICE should be over 40%.

Hypercars concept not only throws in trash about 10 years of aero development, is going to throw also finest fuel efficiency technologies as I can see...
Very likely hypercars will get a 90L fuel tank to keep the standard average 45 minutes stint lenght. Good side of the matter is that maybe large NA engines will strike back
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Old 25 Oct 2018, 12:56 (Ref:3859097)   #6024
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That bsfc is a joke. It is even further into the rubbish idea of allowing a NA engines compete against more efficient turbo engines in lmp1 this year.

On the engine thermal efficiency, any engine provider in 2018 should be achieving over 40%. Simple application of direct injection and a good design should generate figures between 40-44%. Pre-chamber tech would then give the next step change in efficiency and allow better and improved combustion with the lambda figures in excess of 1.15/1.2
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Old 25 Oct 2018, 13:23 (Ref:3859101)   #6025
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GasperG has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The formula is simple and posted on Wikipedia, the unknown is the type of fuel used (energy density), that is why I used word "around" 36% efficiency.
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