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View Poll Results: Just a Straight Vote
McLaren United 9 18.75%
Enrique Bernoldi 39 81.25%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 3 Jun 2001, 10:44 (Ref:100392)   #1
Liz
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Liz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLiz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just a Straight Vote

Having stretched the debate to five pages and counting, I'm interested in a straight vote between the two Camps: Which was correct, McLaren United or Bernoldi?

Add comments if you want to, of course, but most of it's been said by now, IMO anyway!
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 10:52 (Ref:100397)   #2
Valve Bounce
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Valve Bounce has been held in scrutiny for further testing
Issue not confined to Mclaren & Bernoldi

1. Ron Dennis should have had his faced punched.
2. Bernoldi should have let DC pass after holding him up for around 10 laps max.
3. I think the sporstmanship issue is beyond anything to do with McLaren, and could affect Williams, BAR, Jordan, Jaguar, and Renault in the future.
When all this has died down, I will post another thread to discuss the ramifications about team orders. Just let me think about this issue myself first, OK? :confused:

Last edited by Valve Bounce; 3 Jun 2001 at 10:53.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 11:56 (Ref:100447)   #3
Gt_R
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I believe there is no doubt that Enrique has 100% right to stay in front of DC, as long as he is on the same lap. Everyone here agrees that this is racing, and so is perfectly within his rights.

Now the sportsmanship part. Enrique is doing what he is paid to do, and sportsmanship doesnt include giving up your position to please your opponent. And remember, every single team has every single right to compete for the WDC and WCC. That is what everyone in F1 is there for. Who knows, Arrows might accelerate their developement program and win the remaining 10 races!

Think soccer. Man U vs Man City. Just because Man U is a far better team, does that mean that when Man City's striker see a Man U defender in front lining up for a tackle, he just stop running and pass the ball to the defender? Or just because Man U is fighting for the championship, thus when Cole wants to put a ball into Man City's goal, the goalkeeper of Man City, out of sportsman ship, steps aside to let the ball roll in??

Sportsmanship is not fouled in this incident on track. And it is amazing that DC actually dare demand sportsmanship when he do not show his rival's any on the track. Pointing fingers and showing the bird isnt sportsmanship, for Christ sake. Calling your opponents an "idiot" is also not sporting. And having Ron and Haug threatening and intimidating a young driver isnt sportsmanship either. In fact, i think in the US, Enrique can sue Ron and Haug for intimidation. The only breach of sportsmanship lies squarely in the Mclaren yard
DC and Ron is totally wrong. (For DC actually holding up Schumacher in Suzuka98 isnt really sporting either, esp when DC is lapped).

I agree with Liz in another post. If a car have to let a faster car past, then we do not need racing. All we need is everyone building a car, have one qualifying, then determine the WCC. then back to building a new car for the next year...

And to quote from JPM in another incident... if DC"thinks he's been granted some right by divine grace which allows him to overtake wherever he wants, I have news for him, he can forget it".
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 12:22 (Ref:100467)   #4
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I'm with VB.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 12:59 (Ref:100482)   #5
R
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R should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And I'm with Gt_R. Why anyone should give up his position when the drivers are on the same lap is beyond me.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 14:22 (Ref:100499)   #6
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Maximum F1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If Ron Dennis and his team had of got their fingers out they would have got off the grid in the first place and wouldn't have had any need to take part in the bullying they did.
Sorry Maybe it's a bit harsh but I hate all this talk about how Bernoldi should have let Coulthard by..these drivers are payed to race not to move over and let people by...this is racing, the same thing happened Schumacher when he got stuck behind Damon Hill in, I think the 96 Monaco GP.

Last edited by Maximum F1; 3 Jun 2001 at 14:27.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 15:05 (Ref:100545)   #7
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Minardi fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Screw McLaren, GO ENRRRRRRIQUE! I think that says it all.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 15:33 (Ref:100567)   #8
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I'd say Bernoldi was correct. No matter how far down the field you are, if you are on the same lap you're entitled to defend your position and you're not obliged to pull over and let the guy behind through, whether he's 0.4 or 4 seconds faster than you.

It was a race for position and there was no way Bernoldi should have been expected to pull over. If DC couldn't get past it was his problem.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 16:48 (Ref:100620)   #9
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economy_waffle should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
it woz team orders by orange arrows - bernoldi woz probably told to do this so bcos of walkinshaw's actions to get more tv coverage for orange, so bernoldi and DC were victims of this...ron should have gone to walkinshaw first NOT to intimidate bernoldi and DC should stop moaning cos it was more than a week ago!!!
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 16:49 (Ref:100621)   #10
Run Free
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Run Free should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by Gt_R
I believe there is no doubt that Enrique has 100% right to stay in front of DC, as long as he is on the same lap. Everyone here agrees that this is racing, and so is perfectly within his rights.

Agree.
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 16:57 (Ref:100628)   #11
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badoer fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What if it ****ed it down in the first race and the only finishers were the Minardis and Arrows? Should McLaren and Ferrari let them pass in the next and subsequent GPs, they are fighting for the championship after all?
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 18:58 (Ref:100682)   #12
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Total-F1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I don't want to argue with anyone, but I think that DC was fair in being angry with Bernoldi because of the way he was driving - aside from slowing him by 4 seconds a lap - which is reason enough to be upset, he protected his line in a completely dangerous manner! It was a very crude publicity stunt on Arrows' part, but those points at least cancel out the extra 2 points TGF got in Austria....
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 19:25 (Ref:100690)   #13
Don K
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Originally posted by economy_waffle
it woz team orders by orange arrows - bernoldi woz probably told to do this so bcos of walkinshaw's actions to get more tv coverage for orange, so bernoldi and DC were victims of this...
But suppose Jos and Bernoldi wouldn't have had big problems in their pit-stops.
Would David have been able to pass Jos?
Would Bernoldi have finished outside the top 6?

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Old 3 Jun 2001, 19:43 (Ref:100697)   #14
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Total-F1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What is the point of speculation like this? Does it make a difference? Why not just focus on what actually happened?
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Old 3 Jun 2001, 19:59 (Ref:100706)   #15
Roy2
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Roy2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Fan

I think that DinoIV 's comments in the big thread probably come close to what went down. That is, Bernoldi was following team orders. If so then Bernoldi's behavior was correct (what else could a young driver with no job security to do under these circumstances but follow team orders?), and the question becomes who was correct, McLaren or Arrows?

In the race, technically and according to the rule book, neither team was in the wrong. The blue flags shown were disregarded, but aren't they supposed to be shown only to a car about to be lapped? If this was Arrows understanding also, then perhaps they were right to await clarification from race control (which never came, by the way).

If Arrows believed, and they probably did, that JoV and DC were racing for the same points, then their actions are perfectly understandable and can't be attributed to poor sportsmanship or bloody mindedness. This is BIG business and for Arrows not to take full advantage of Mclaren' self -induced embarrassment would be soft-headed, and it seems to me that Walkinshaw is as hard as they get.

So IMO in the race Bernoldi was correct, Walkinshaw was correct, and DC made the best of a bad situation. After the race that gutless wonder Ron Dennis, instead of talking to the man Walkinshaw, bullied and browbeat the young Bernoldi. Had he spoken to Tom Walkinshaw that way he'd probably have been invited out behind the garages, and methinks he knew it.

So - Arrows were correct and McLaren, athough understandably frustrated, were wrong, stupid, gutless.
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