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Old 14 May 2020, 08:17 (Ref:3976042)   #1
V8 Fireworks
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Category engine

Alan Gow suggests it makes no difference to fans if all the race cars use the same engine -- subsequently, the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine. The trouble locally though seems to be complaints from Ford fans about Fords using Chevrolet engines, or from Holdens fans about Holdens using Ford engines -- Casper has solved the issue: use an engine from another manufacturer entirely.

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Originally Posted by justracing View Post
Alan Gow is very rarely wrong IMHO. I've been a big fan of the BTCC here in the UK and I also follow the Aussie series from afar and to quote AG:
“We looked at things like the engine, no one on the side of the spectator bank cares about the internal workings of the engine.
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Use the Nissan motor...problem solved and they will both be unhappy.
The Dodge 6.2 Hellcat crate engine should do the trick:

707 hp @ 6,000 rpm
880 Nm @ 4,800 rpm
$15,900 USD / $24,700 AUD
https://www.moparproshop.com/inc/sdetail/16460/16733
Engine details: https://www.enginelabs.com/news/hell...ngine-details/ [Iron block, forged pistons & rods -- presumably this HEMI is durable enough for racing?]

Seems a fairly affordable way to get 707 reliable Dodge horsepower.

The only concern with the Dodge Hellcat is that being supercharged, does it suffer heat soak when it is run continually flat-out for long periods of time? It has an air-to-water intercooler sandwiched under the blower, but this might need to be tested and perhaps upgraded.

Thoughts on a category engine for Supercars and what it should be?

Otherwise it could be the Chevrolet LS or LT (direct-injected LS).

Or it could be the Ford Coyote. Probably the standard 5.0L block, as the bored-out 5.2L uses "plasma arc spray-on cylinder liners" and can't be easily honed or rebuilt. Pairing a flatplane crank with an unequal length header, like the Shelby GT350 Mustang, would give the Supercars category a fun and unique sound.

What other options are there?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 14 May 2020 at 08:37.
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Old 14 May 2020, 09:35 (Ref:3976065)   #2
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine.
The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.
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Old 14 May 2020, 10:03 (Ref:3976076)   #3
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The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.
My mistake.

I thought everyone apart from Honda, BMW and Subaru runners use the TOCA engine? Who else doesn't use it?

Edit -- It seems many of the Honda privateers use the TOCA engine and not the Honda K series:

Quote:
Swindon Powertrain will be again supplying TOCA engines and engineering services to the majority of the 30 car strong 2019 Kwikfit British Touring Car Championship grid this year. Our engines powered the AMD Tuning Honda Civics driven by Rory Butcher, Sam Tordoff and Mike Bushell.
https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx
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Old 14 May 2020, 11:07 (Ref:3976104)   #4
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There might potentially be a less biased source for your information.

16/30 is TECHNICALLY a majority.

We shouldn't really be using PR puff as evidence of anything.....
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Old 14 May 2020, 11:07 (Ref:3976106)   #5
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
My mistake.

I thought everyone apart from Honda, BMW and Subaru runners use the TOCA engine? Who else doesn't use it?
Ford
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Old 14 May 2020, 11:13 (Ref:3976111)   #6
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Ford
I see! Given the reputation of the Ford Ecoboost for a variety of ailments [cracked heads etc], that is very brave of them!

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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
We shouldn't really be using PR puff as evidence of anything.....
I am surprised it is so contentious!

The point is that the BTCC Audi, Mercedes, Toyota, Alfa, Renault etc all use the category engine and nobody cares that these vehicles don't have the correct engine.

With Team18 quitting due to costs, every measure to reduce costs in Supercars seems critical. Replacing a $150,000AUD engine that requires lots of machining and custom parts and can only run around 5,000km between rebuilds, with a relatively unmodified category engine that costs $25,000AUD and can run 10,000km between rebuilds seem an important step to containing costs.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 14 May 2020 at 11:18.
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Old 14 May 2020, 12:21 (Ref:3976122)   #7
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
The point is that the BTCC Audi, Mercedes, Toyota, Alfa, Renault etc all use the category engine and nobody cares that these vehicles don't have the correct engine.
I think the main reason most people don't care about a lot of those cars in the BTCC is that they are not real "factory supported" teams and they never amount to anything. The Toyotas are somewhat prominent but the Merc and Alfa are honestly a bit tragic in the BTCC.

Sure there's lots of cars, but half of them are rubbish and the drivers in the back half of the field are nobodies. A lot like the old days of Supercars.
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Old 14 May 2020, 20:55 (Ref:3976243)   #8
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With Team18 quitting due to costs, every measure to reduce costs in Supercars seems critical.
Agree on reducing costs but didn't know that Team18 was quitting and citing costs as the reason for quitting. When was it announced? I'll go and have a look for the info.
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Old 14 May 2020, 11:07 (Ref:3976103)   #9
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Originally Posted by pinkdigital View Post
The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.
4 of the top 10 used it.
16 cars ran with it in total. That figure is increased for 2020.
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Old 14 May 2020, 16:59 (Ref:3976204)   #10
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Alan Gow suggests it makes no difference to fans if all the race cars use the same engine -- subsequently, the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine. The trouble locally though seems to be complaints from Ford fans about Fords using Chevrolet engines, or from Holdens fans about Holdens using Ford engines -- Casper has solved the issue: use an engine from another manufacturer entirely.





The Dodge 6.2 Hellcat crate engine should do the trick:

707 hp @ 6,000 rpm
880 Nm @ 4,800 rpm
$15,900 USD / $24,700 AUD
https://www.moparproshop.com/inc/sdetail/16460/16733
Engine details: https://www.enginelabs.com/news/hell...ngine-details/ [Iron block, forged pistons & rods -- presumably this HEMI is durable enough for racing?]

Seems a fairly affordable way to get 707 reliable Dodge horsepower.

The only concern with the Dodge Hellcat is that being supercharged, does it suffer heat soak when it is run continually flat-out for long periods of time? It has an air-to-water intercooler sandwiched under the blower, but this might need to be tested and perhaps upgraded.

Thoughts on a category engine for Supercars and what it should be?

Otherwise it could be the Chevrolet LS or LT (direct-injected LS).

Or it could be the Ford Coyote. Probably the standard 5.0L block, as the bored-out 5.2L uses "plasma arc spray-on cylinder liners" and can't be easily honed or rebuilt. Pairing a flatplane crank with an unequal length header, like the Shelby GT350 Mustang, would give the Supercars category a fun and unique sound.

What other options are there?
Judd or Gibson LMP-engines... Especially the Judd V10 would bring a glorious sound and be fully neutral in terms of being related to any OEM.
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Old 18 May 2020, 11:43 (Ref:3976923)   #11
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A few crate engines (say three: V8, TTV6, TIL4) built by Supercars technical team with a engine person per manufacturer to help guide the build. (One from Ford, BMW, etc for example)
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Old 18 May 2020, 13:35 (Ref:3976943)   #12
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Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it
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Old 19 May 2020, 09:28 (Ref:3977107)   #13
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Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it
Why would the European/American manufacturers want to join a small category on the other side of the world with very small volumes in the domestic market, it simply does not make sense and stopped makng sense when local production stopped. The whole ethos of what made SC a good category went down the slot with the production closures but I don't think that penny has dropped yet even a few years down the track.
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Old 20 May 2020, 05:17 (Ref:3977252)   #14
V8 Fireworks
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it
The concern I have with is that 10:1 compression is too low for a racing engine, 7500rpm rev limit is too low for a racing engine [Brockie was revving the Holden 308 to 8000+ in the 80's after all], and banning variable timing and direct injection is just silly. Your approach is not completely terrible, but it was VERY unfair that Volvo were given a lot more concessions than Nissan (Volvo were allowed a much smaller bore and much longer stroke than the other engines, which was much better suited to the low 7500rpm rev limit).

More cutting-edge categories like Japanese SuperGT and Formula One are pushing ahead with turbulent jet injection (and the ultra-lean super-efficient combustion that goes with it), meanwhile Supercars is stuck on port injection and 10:1 compression and (presumably) the horribly poor thermal efficiency that goes with that!

With a "have at it" approach, BMW and Audi spent 80 million euro on just engine development alone for their 2L turbo DTM engines.

Audi 610hp DTM engine:


It's rather ugly isn't it? But it is 85 kg, which is a good ~40 kg lighter than a production-based four cylinder engine... So there's that I guess.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 20 May 2020 at 05:28.
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Old 21 May 2020, 08:31 (Ref:3977469)   #15
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Your approach is not completely terrible, but it was VERY unfair that Volvo were given a lot more concessions than Nissan (Volvo were allowed a much smaller bore and much longer stroke than the other engines, which was much better suited to the low 7500rpm rev limit).
Wasn't unfair, both Volvo and Erebus asked for and received dispensation on different points, the Nissan team wasn't smart enough to crunch the numbers and ask. Racing is as much about politics and intelligent interpretation of rules as it is engineering.

GRM won in the Volvo, and they won in Holdens.
Erebus won in the faux Benz, and they have been very competitive since.

The Kellys Holdens never threatened and unfortunately the mediocrity continued with the Nissans. Their engine was never particularly competitive and its clear post-Mustang that the car probably carried aerodynamic deficiencies that the team were not smart enough to identify, until the Mustang forced the realisation.

There can only be technical parity; it doesn't make a given team a winner.
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