The MSA demand how much for an HTP????

[Peter Mallett]

Looks like its around the same price everywhere. Besides by the time you added transportation and accommodation costs to the exercise its probably more expensive in mainland Europe.

Originally Posted by L-G Sjöberg

You can save 10% by getting the HTP in Sweden. The fee there is "only" SEK 5000.00 which is approx £360. Seriously, the debate about the HTP fee is going on in Sweden as well, where everyone (i.e. everyone who needs a new HTP for a car with an existing HVIF form) questions what we get for the cost. Suggestions that cars should be allowed to race in national events using the old form have remained unanswered. (And just by coincidence the price for the HTP happened to increase compared to the old HVIF now that it became mandatory for everyone to replace the HVIF).

[eclectic]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sumner

Well £500+ represents 5% of my annual racing cost and that is not, in my view, a small part, and so even MN seem to have been seduced by the high spending world of pro racing.

By my reckoning, your racing budget is substantially larger than my entire income net of tax.

My Historic Racer, the Special Austin Mercury has a buy and rebuild budget of half that, so the MSA charges for an HTP and the Historic Papers between them come to nearly 10% of the value of the car.

Maybe we should form a 10 Tenths Racing Association 10TRA for short and go outlaw racing, and sod the MSA.

To missquote the Life of Brian, "What have the MSA ever done for us?"

[Peter Mallett]

They gave us .......................... a book!

[eclectic]

Just imagine if the Bible was updated every year and you had to pay for a medical and a licence to get hold of a copy.

I have a Blue Book from 'round 1972, it is a very slim volume.

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

I was very slim in 1972.

[Al Weyman]

Most of the Blue book either repeats itself or has no relevance whatsoever to most of the club racers in this country. It could easy be slimmed down to a fraction of the size and be then funded by the adverisements that are not that cheap its also about time it was available in .pdf format for free download for all, who's ruddy sport is it anyhow?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Most of the Blue book either repeats itself or has no relevance whatsoever to most of the club racers in this country. It could easy be slimmed down to a fraction of the size and be then funded by the adverisements that are not that cheap its also about time it was available in .pdf format for free download for all, who's ruddy sport is it anyhow?

Why have it printed anyway? It can be supplied as a pdf on the Internet or on a CD Rom for a fraction of the cost. I hazard a guess that there are very few people in racing these days without a computer. It can also be updated on a regular basis instead of once a year (or would that cause even more trouble).

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Why have it printed anyway? It can be supplied as a pdf on the Internet or on a CD Rom for a fraction of the cost. I hazard a guess that there are very few people in racing these days without a computer. It can also be updated on a regular basis instead of once a year (or would that cause even more trouble).

The Blue Book is essential even in this day and age. After all not every race official has a lap-top computer they can take to race meetings thus the Blue Book remains a vital tool for many of the people who run our motorsport events.

[rbracing]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread this morning. Patrick is clearly a man after my own heart!

To be absloutely sure of what is being debated so seriously, can somebody state, definatively, the new historic vehicle identity requirements please?
I have yet to renew my licence so I do not have the 2006 Blue book yet.

I presently have FIA and HSCC papers for my Brabham.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

The Blue Book is essential even in this day and age. After all not every race official has a lap-top computer they can take to race meetings thus the Blue Book remains a vital tool for many of the people who run our motorsport events.

Good comment. But not everyone needs it all, just the sections that apply to them.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sumner

I have never posted here but I am moved to do so by what I understand is being said here

Nice to see you here Patrick and welcome. Hope these issues can be sorted out and we see you in your F.Atlantic car again in 2006. Many memories of you racing the F5000 Trojan back in '74! Keep on posting.

[RTH]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sumner

I have never posted here but I am moved to do so by what I understand is being said here, namely that although one’s car has a FIA HVIF one will have to have an HTP (whatever that stands for) by the end of this year and furthermore you will have to pay £400 for it. If this is correct I think it is absolutely scandalous. If the new document is so important, common sense tells you that you need only complete a new form, send it in with the old one for checking and stamping and pay a nominal fee. In my case I returned to racing in 2003 after a 27 year break in a car I’d restored and already I find that most of my race kit, plus the seat belts, and the fire extinguisher are out of date, with the bag tanks for next year. Then there’s the small matter of preparing the car for racing which I foolishly thought was the reason I did this. Many I am sure are in the same boat. I cannot be alone in finding these governing bodies out of control and I question what their purpose is in life, for example I could happily forego the quarterly glossy from the MSA which goes straight in the bin (having read the latest parental punch up in the karting world!). They have adopted the attitude of our rulers, namely just look for another angle when you want some more cash.

Why on earth we all put up with this I do not know, in fact I’m not sure I shall bother anymore, I’ve never liked authority and like it even less as the years go by. Wouldn’t it be nice if the historic world just said NO as Peter Morley says. No chance I fear.

If everyone said no they would be out of business in a heartbeat

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

The Blue Book is essential even in this day and age. After all not every race official has a lap-top computer they can take to race meetings thus the Blue Book remains a vital tool for many of the people who run our motorsport events.

Steve, the advantage of a pdf download is that it can then easily be printed off by anyone with a computer and a printer so the officials can soon have a hard bound copy to take to the track. I do a lot a bit of this for customers at my shop but anyone can do it from home.

[midgetman]

Let's not get too hung up on the delivery of the rules, there's no way that a, what 50k?, print run costs a great deal to print and distribute so pdf or book isn't the killer point of the licence fee. What no-one's explained to me is why different licences cost different amounts; what's the difference in admin between a Nat B and a Nat A or Int Historic/C? Any extra insurance? Any extra benefits?

And why can't you read the blue book before taking out a licence. Sign here: "I agree to abide by the rules". "But what are the rules?" "I can't tell you until you've agreed to abide by them". Orwellian.

But back to the log book thingy. What can be done about it? Or is it just for everyone to moan here and meekly pay up?

If the MSA doesn't speak for "us", haven't we now got the chance - with Alan Gow taking the helm - to speak or forever hold our peace? Let us bombard him with constructive criticism (not just price whinges) about how the MSA doesn't help us. After all, the F1 teams have got concessions by threatening to break away haven't they?

So how can the MSA be better for us? We've got two subjects here: antiquated delivery of rules and fees that are out of touch with real life. And transponders - if my local kart tack can time 20 karts on 30second laps for 3 hours for twenty five quid, why does it take an army of timekeepers and officials and ten times the price? And another thing....aaaargh, no.........nurse, please let me finish...........oh no not the shiny.........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaHHHHHHHHH!(f/x one grumpy old git being tied up in his straight jacket again)

[Al Weyman]

Ok here is another one then and I say this from personal (bitter) experience that actually caused me to hang up my helmet for 8 years.

Why the drivers fines and where do they go, presumably they go into the coffers of the MSA and if so how is this either fair or lawful. In 1997 I was fined £100 for failing to see and consequently react to a badly (IMO) placed black flag unsited in my left hand drive saloon. I am a self funded amatuer driver doing this for a hobby and fun so tell me what right have they got to fine me £100 for a genuine mistake. This was not a flagerant flouting of the rules as I have always played by the rules and at the time as co-founder and Chairman of The Racing Saloon car Club who organises the ModProds Championship I was competing in I had to be whiter than white to set an example. But no this stood for nothing, they still fined me a hundred quid.

So I ask again where does this money go and what right do the MSA have to act as judge and jury without appeal (I would loose and it would have cost me more money) or representation and levy these fines agains amatuer drivers to swell their coffers, it stinks. An endorsment on my licence, forced to start from the back of the grid, 10 second penalty, deduction of championship points, miss the next round etc. are all reasonable punishments if such a punishment for a mistake is deemed necessary but a fine, how do they have the right, even if it went to charity it would be easier to swallow! And yes I am still bitter about it.

[MGDavid]

Al, did you read that they recently fined a rich karting daddy 30 grand - yes 30,000 - for some engine infringement? That'll fund an extra blue blazer I reckon....

[midgetman]

Actually the 30k wasn't "some engine infringement", it was expensive, systematic and blatant cheating to achieve victory for his son and customers. Something to do with turning a TKM into a variable timing engine by mucking around with the conrod.

But point well taken, perhaps they could lop £1 off the licence fee of the 30,000 non-cheating holders ;-)

[eclectic]

Well I seem to have stirred up a real hornet's nest here.

When I first started in the VSCC in 1980 or thereabouts I thought the RAC MSA, as it was then, still had a whiff of being there to help us go racing in a safe and organised manner, today I have no such illusion.

The relevance of the MSA to AMATEUR sport in Historic or Vintage racing is virtually nil. It is only 'there because it is there' and if I were to attend a race organised by any other 'outlaw' organisation I would be banned from their playpen.

This is a closed shop of the worst kind.

Charges bear no relationship to services offered, I have an International Historic Licence that costs me a medical every year, a Stress ECG every two years and £120 per annum to the MSA why so much? Well presumably because if I want one I must be a rich B who can afford it.

If the compulsory Blue Blazers cost so much to attend our meetings then there is an arguement for charging a flat rate for a licences plus a levy on the entry fees, this would at lest mean that you paid for your racing pro rata. Last year, for one reason or another I only entered one sprint. I paid as much as if I had done a whole season of 20 events.

Why on earth does the MSA need to stick its nose into anything other than commercial modern racing?

The answer. Because it can and it can compel us to pay them for the privelege.

On top of all this there are FIVA passports, has anyone ever explained what they are for? Is it to our advantage?

Beats me why the VSCC, the HGPA and Historic racers don't get together with Lord March and tell the MSA to get its fingers out of our pie.

[eclectic]

While I am up on my soapbox, I know why we need the Blue Book, it is to tell us what they change very year.

For decades we had well understood categories for racing our old cars,

Edwardian,

Vintage,

Post Vintage

Historic etc

Now I have to look in the Blue Book beacause they are called Class A or B or some such irrelevant categories that are meaningless without looking it up in the Blue Book!

I do accept that we need an organisation to provide safety standards for our circuits and events. Beyond all that, what do the MSA do for us?

Do they promote Motor Sport?

Do they encourage the public to become racing drivers?

Do they encourage the public to attend racing?

I have never seen a statement from the MSA of their "Aims and Objectives".

[TimD]

I've had a request to clue in the general racers forum on this subject as a lot of issues have been raised which affect all participants and not just those in our particular niche.

I must confess to being at a loss to know where to start splitting the thread so for now I've just duplicated it to see if it takes on a new life of its own in the Racers Forum.

If you've general MSA queries or concerns, perhaps I could suggest that they be raised in that forum and we'll concentrate on the issue of the HTP and its cost in here.

[Andrew Fellowes]

You might like a little insight into Aussie Historics, not that there aren’t problems here too but after 20 years with historics in the UK and now 6 in Oz (after a 10 year lay off) I can at least make some comparisons.

Firstly CAMS (our MSA) do not have a monopoly, there is an alternative though not accepted by CAMS. Those TNF members here might recall an excellent thread started by Doug Nye that evolved into an erudite and informative discussion over on Atlas. Its when things go wrong at a race meeting that tests the system. CAMS have systems in place that are very professional, I have seen how it works in the event of a bad accident and it it superb.

National Comp Licence (no historic here) $341, approx 145 pounds
Historic Log Book $165 (a one off fee) approx 70 pounds
Certificate of Description $600 approx 250 quid
FIA Tec passport(not used here) $600 about 250 quid (oh yes, I've just looked it up!!)

Oz has done its own thing when it comes to Historics for many years, and done it very well in my experience.

Yup, do what I did, move!!!!!!

[zefarelly]

the septics are the same in doing their own thing, the trouble for us is we live in a piddling little old London town so we go abroad to race, therefore need Euro papers etc. this is twhere ther FiA come in, and that seems to be where the MSA bump the price up

[Patrick Sumner]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

Nice to see you here Patrick and welcome. Hope these issues can be sorted out and we see you in your F.Atlantic car again in 2006. Many memories of you racing the F5000 Trojan back in '74! Keep on posting.

Hello Andrew and thank you for your welcome. Happy days in F5000, a much simpler life when all you had was a licence saying International Racing Driver, always good for the ego, and away you went racing, an activity that doesn't seem so high on the agenda these days! Actually I'm just a grumpy old man now. Sorry not to have commissioned a painting yet, the money is disappearing into the HTP bumph!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sumner

all you had was a licence saying International Racing Driver, always good for the ego,

got mine last week for the first time . . .thinking of putting it on my passport renewal as well

[Patrick Sumner]

It seems only fair to the MSA to report here that I wrote to them asking for answers to specific questions on the cost of the HTP document. I received a very prompt reply from John Symes (Technical Risk & Control Manager) who gave answers in respect of the MSA fee of £250, the registrars apparently being independent contractors of service and free to charge whatever fees and expenses they decide to impose. In essence the MSA feel the existing fee did not cover costs and would have liked to have raised it even further but also make the point that the £250 contains VAT. So at least Gordon is on the act! So the net of VAT increase is £119 so multiply that by the number of HTP’s needed and I reckon a few overheads are covered!

One ray of light is that people like myself, my car being inspected only three years ago, may be able to forego another inspection. So for heavens sake negotiate. Mind you, having read the thread "Double drive charges" I can see that the cost of an HTP is small fry!