track layouts over the years

[djb]

Here's a question, are there any links to track layouts over the years-specifically Silverstone, Donnington and Brands? Two things made me think of this, 1-hearing the "old hairpin" corner at Donnington or Silverstone (I have a terrible memory for names) where obviously there was once a hairpin; and 2-reading of the fastest F1 average speed of a lap in the 80's by one of the turbo and qualifying tired cars (Piquet, Rosberg?) at Silverstone I think. For this visually slanted fellow, layouts would be great, and as a bonus, with the corner names. Any ideas?
Were any of you there during that fastest lap qualifying? It must have been something seeing and hearing those things whalloping around the track.

[SL]

A careful one here as I am not 100% sure:

The old hairpin would propably refer to Donnington. This was a section that is not included in the current layout. Not sure where, I sure Tim will be here soon to do an answer.

Rosberg did the fastest lap ever at Silverstone, this is when Woodcote was a fast bend, not a complex.

Silverstone have a web site that might show the old track, if not take the current track, draw straight lines linking the corporate jet runways and smooth curves around them then you have the (best) Silverstone circuit.

Simon

[TimD]

This is spooky. I was watching some old footage of the pre-war Donington Grands Prix this week, and I was going to post something about the Donington layout because I couldn't find anything which listed the pre and post-war circuit changes.

Put simply, the footage shows clearly that the Craner Curves and Old Hairpin are not so very different now as they were then. But from there, I know for certain that the track took a route to the left of where it is now. And you know that bridge with the LSR car cutout on it? Well, the stone arch structure behind the catch fencing is what the cars USED to pass under. The mind boggles at the thought of a Mercedes and an Auto Union dicing through there.

I've been trying for a couple of days to find a map - if I do, I'll link to it.


As regards Silverstone, yes, it was Keke Rosberg in a Williams FW10 in 1986. A lap speed of a little over 160mph! And yes, I was there, peering over the debris bank that used to be just before the braking area into Woodcote. I think I recall Peter Mallett saying he was at Silverstone that day too.

In those days, the Bridge/Brooklands/Luffield complex simply didn't exist. The cars came powering under the bridge, hit the brakes to set themselves up for a quick right-left-right squirt which was the Woodcote chicane, and then off past pit road.

Time was, of course, when Woodcote wasn't even a chicane, but a long fast sweeping corner that the very best would attempt to take flat out. Jody Scheckter put a stop to that in 1973, when he spun trying to do just that whilst at the sharp end of the field at the end of lap one. When he slithered back onto the track, the resulting shunt eliminated nearly half the grid. Jody himself reports John Surtees attempting to get at him to do him some harm - all three of Surtees' team cars were written off in the accident.

I was at that race, too, as a small child - but nowhere near that infamous accident. I think if I remember rightly, the family had parked up somewhere near Becketts. But I was only six at the time!

[SL]

Tim,

I knew you would be around to answer the Q.

I was also at the race, I'm not that sure about the crash as I think me and girlie were at Woodcote. Was crash not at another corner or am I getting my mucking fears yuddled again

Simon

[TimD]

Strictly, while Jody's spin started on Woodcote, by the time he lurched onto the track again, he was on the grid pattern opposite the first pit garages. (Said he was going flat, didn't I!)

I believe that the worst driver damage was a broken ankle, and I think it was sustained hitting the pit wall. Racking my brain for who it was, and the name Andrea de Adamich keeps popping up. If anyone can recall more precisely, I'd be very grateful, because I am not confident in my memory on that one.

While on the subject of memory, I just recalled that Tiff Needell did a drive-around of the old Donington layout before the 1993 European GP.

I'll dig out the tape and see what it says.

Speaking of "mucking fears", I did actually mean 1985 for Keke's hot qualifier. By 1986. he was having a grotty time as McLaren number two.

[SL]

Tim,


Thats better, I think the ankle was Mike Hailwood driving / crashing a Surtees. The prang happened after Woodcote as we could not see the carnage. The race was held up for over an hour. Surtees writing off a whole team.

Later in the day it was carnage in the car parks as the rain had made the parking a rallycros site. Now where have I seeen this since ???

I maybe wrong as Madam always hid in the car in the rain came and so missed the barrier bumps. It is a matter of recalling where and what car was parked where and when

[Peter Mallett]

Donington,

Hopefully we can find some old maps but if I can clarify. If you extend the Melbourne loop down the hill to the road and then turn right and back 180 degs up the hill you come to Redgate and turn left you the swing into the Craner Curves and down to the Old Hairpin where the cars used to run under a Bridge.

Rosberg set the fastest ever lap of Silverstone in 1985 in a time of 1m 5.976secs. That was with the chicane at Woodcote. The next year we got the original "Woodcote" complex which in turn was superceded by the former Bridge, Priory, Brooklands, Luffield 1 and 2 complex. Currently Luffield 1 and 2 are one corner.

Hope this helps.

[R]

At http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/tracks.html there are links to tracks around the world. At this site there are historical maps of Brands and Silverstone, but only the current map of Donington.

[angst]

I think this is the correct layout for the old Donnington Park.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/t4.htm

[djb]

First of all, sorry for the lack of response, I haven't had a chance 'till late tonight to go over your answers.. Thanks to all; I've had a chance to go to the suggested sites and printed up both old and new layouts. Was the old Donington layout with the long straight into Melbourn pre-war? (by the way, are there any of those rear-engined Auto Union's in running condition today-they were 16 cylinders weren't they?)
As per the 73 Silverstone crash, I have just recently seen a doc. of the 73 season, with footage from two angles of it, across from the pits and directly down the straight from Copse with a really long lens. So that was Scheckter in the white car that lost it in front of everybody-when he came to a stop sideways across the track, those must have been a few very unsettling seconds as he waited for someone to broadside him. Utterly amazing that there were not more injuries, considering the impacts, the cars of the time and the bits and pieces flying seemingly over the pit wall....
I don't recall the race from that year, but there was the gut-wrenching footage of a driver running and grabbing an extingusher from rather unenthusiastic track worker and unsuccessfully trying to rescue another driver from his over turned and burning car. Very unsettling.
Sorry to get morose, thanks again for the info.
PS. Brands seems to have kept it's layout quite the same hasn't it? And did it really get the "Indy" part of its name because US Indy cars raced there once? If so, why did this stick to its name?

[angst]

Yes, there are running Auto-Unions out there. They turn up at places like Donnington and Monterey and the likes of Pirro have driven demonstration laps in them.
The incident you are talking about with the fire extinguisher is at the Dutch Grand Prix of '73. David Purley is the driver attempting to rescue Roger Williamson.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by djb
Brands seems to have kept it's layout quite the same hasn't it? And did it really get the "Indy" part of its name because US Indy cars raced there once? If so, why did this stick to its name?

Yep, 1978 and I think Danny Ongais won. I also think they came back in 1979.

[Marshal]

I've come to this a little late, but just a few points to add.

1) As correctly pointed out the Old Hairpin never was a hairpin, the old track is actually the perimeter road that goes down the outside of the concrete wall past the exhibition centre (outside the circuit grounds) this was part of the long straight down to the Melbourne Hairpin.

2) I was at qualifying for the '85 British GP too, Keke was fantastic through Club.

3) I was 1 in'73, but my dad was at the Woodcote apex flag point (this marshalling business runs in the family) and said he knew there was going to be trouble when the 5th car through he was looking straight at its exhaust pipes. And Tim, it was de Ademich who broke his lower leg.

[R]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Yep, 1978 and I think Danny Ongais won. I also think they came back in 1979.

1978 is correct, but Rick Mears won. I can find no info about Indy Cars racing there in 1979.

[Peter Mallett]

Thanks R. Nice to get our info correct.

[Speed Demon]

There was a nice series of articles in Motor Sport in the build up to the US GP about the Indy races in Britain. Mears won at both Silverstone and Brands but Ongais dominated both until he retired with mechanical maladies.

Both races made heavy financial losses and the exercise was never repeated.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Speed Demon
There was a nice series of articles in Motor Sport in the build up to the US GP about the Indy races in Britain. Mears won at both Silverstone and Brands but Ongais dominated both until he retired with mechanical maladies.

Both races made heavy financial losses and the exercise was never repeated.

That would explain my confusion.

[R]

Well, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but Foyt won at Silverstone. Danny Ongais led the first four laps, until retiring with a broken half shaft on lap 5. The race was red flagged after 38 laps because of rain.

At Brands, it's true that Ongais led from the start until lap 83, when he retired with a broken gearbox. Mears led the final 17 laps and won the race.

At this point, I could lean myself backwards and proudly say I remember all this.

Not true though. http://www.motorsport.com/stats/champ/ is where I've found this info. (Thanks to 10 Tenths, I know of this great statistical reference site. The link was provided some time ago by another member in the Indy Racing forum.)

[Speed Demon]

Fair enuff. Me ole mem'ry's not what it once was...

[Marshal]

I was going to say that Foyt won at Silverstone, I know that 'cos he shook my hand afterwards

[TimD]

And you've still got your hand?

Ol' AJ must be slipping...!

Somewhere deep in the boxes of racing memorabilia, I've got the programme for the Brands Hatch race. I wasn't able to go see it, but it turned up in a box of magazines I was buying a few years ago.

[Marshal]

I think he was in charming mode at that time seeing as he'd just won! Also, what's he going to do with a 6-year olds hand!