[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[ECW Dan Selby]

It's the same old argument isn't it. One I really can't decide which side i'm on. Any time I hear from someone who feels strongly on either side of the fence, i'm more inclined to side with that side of the argument!

So hard.. Where's the sweet spot?

Selby

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Leading into an accident with your face even if it is protected by a helmet
just seems intuitively wrong somehow.

Drivers who may have been saved by a frontal intrusion structure like the FIA is testing

Killed by wheels:
Surtees, Senna, Hoettinger, Spence
Killed by other objects:
Pryce, Stacey, David Smith
Killed by frontal cockpit intrusions:
Koinigg, Wheldon, Moore, Campos, Donohue, Cevert, Birrell, Hocking, Max Stewart, Hans-Georg Burger,
Harmed by frontal intrusion:
Massa, DaMatta, Brundle, Marko,

The above list is not exhaustive and based on what I can recall from a faulty memory, and I am sure some of the guys will add more drivers.
While some of the drivers would not have been saved, a lot more of the drivers would still be with us or have been uninjured if the FIA frontal roll hoop or canopy had been in place.

The event of being struck in the face in an open cockpit is however not rare no matter what some will have you believe.

Some of those accidents would have required an enclosed cockpit, rather than a roll hoop in front of the cockpit, to prevent them.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

The event of being struck in the face in an open cockpit is however not rare no matter what some will have you believe.

It is rare. Compare your list to the number of races by drivers that didn't suffer one of those tragic events. Your argument is that isn't rare enough.

[wolfhound]

Charlie Whiting belives some form of additional head protection will be added to F1 cars in the near future although he is unsure of what it will be at the moment. The best results have come from forward roll hoops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18104886

If they could make a clear windscreen/ roll hoop to me it would be the best solution as it would not dramatically change the look of the cars, still be open cockpits and hopefully give the drivers better protection from flying debris.

[werner]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

No one likes to see drivers killed however, despite the popularity of modern F1, I reckon that motorsport is less revered by the public as there is less skill involved. Drivers used to risk life and limb. Now, death and serious injury are less of a concern.

Here is where your argument is flawed. When there is less danger involved, we can better see the skills of the drivers. Because in the dangerous era's, to drive at a fast pace, you would not only had to have the skills to do so, but also had to be an idiot, or suicidal. Offcourse the pool of people that are both skilled and suicidal is much smaller compared to the pool of drivers who are skilled full stop. It's no surprise that today we see a dozen of drivers able to win GP's when given the right equipment, compared to maybe a hand full in earlier years.

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Also, the safer we make the cars/circuits, the more risks the drivers will take. Open wheel racing has become ridiculous in terms of driving standards. There is no place nor need to bang wheels at 180mph. That is where the real danger is. Just look at what was happening at Las Vegas just before Wheldon's accident. People were racing like they were in karts. If there was more risk you would have to think about your actions before not after you committed them.

/Rant over.

I agree that, whatever safetyfeatures cars and track have installed, bumping wheels at such speeds will never be completely risk-free. However, I like drivers being able to take risks to get a better result or a faster lap, without having a big chance to end the day in a hospital. It makes for more exiting racing. Mind you, there should always be a penalty involved when you make a mistake. But it should be, and mostly is, losing time or positions, and at worst have your race finished early. I hate corners where drivers drive at the limit, make a mistake, drive as fast at the run-off as they would have done on the track and finally end up in the same position compared to their competitors as they were before.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Looking at the on-board from Vettel's car as he drove through the aftermath of the Senna crash, virtually no debris, came at Vettel's car in the way that the FIA Front roll Hoop test (video above) hd the tyre fired at it.

It had all been thrown up in the air and was dropping towards Vettel's car as he approached.

Only a full canopy cockpit cover would prevent carbon fibre/small object intrusion as well as deflect larger objects.

Just for a concept, I've grafted an F16 canopy onto this years HRT



I accept that the airbox would probably require some re-design due to the airflow over the canopy

[JeremySmith]

Good job...

[Armco Bender]

Only a full canopy cockpit cover would prevent carbon fibre/small object intrusion as well as deflect larger objects.

Cars upside down on fire....no way out,you would have a see through BBQ.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Cars upside down on fire....no way out,you would have a see through BBQ.

And when was the last time we saw that in F1 ... not saying that it can't happen with a modern F1 car, but on the balance of probability I'd suggest that cockpit intrusion from shards of carbon fibre, or other wreckage either from it's own or driving through someone else's accident like Vettel in Spain would be more likely a scenario.

The other way of looking at it, if the canopy/cockpit tub were to be a sealed unit, then the argument goes the other way in that the driver is protected from a fire until marshals get to it.

[Greem]

Car upside down, on fire... needs a system somewhat like the Mercedes SLS GT racer with the gull wing doors (hinged unconventionally). It has a release mechanism for rescue workers underneath the sill on both sides. Button pressed, explosives separate the hinge, door falls away. Job done.

[Sodemo]

Why not just race in closed cockpit lemans prototypes then?

Sorry, I am totally against having any sort of cockpit protection. These are supposed to be open wheelers.

Next they will be wanting karting bumper guards for the wheels. Ridiculous.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Why not just race in closed cockpit lemans prototypes then?

Sorry, I am totally against having any sort of cockpit protection. These are supposed to be open wheelers.

Next they will be wanting karting bumper guards for the wheels. Ridiculous.

And they will still be 'open wheelers'....just with closed cockpits...

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Next they will be wanting karting bumper guards for the wheels. Ridiculous.

I think you'll find those on the new Indy cars

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

I think you'll find those on the new Indy cars

The Nerf bars aren't exactly 100% effective as was seen at Long Beach this year, when Marco Andretti and Graham Rahal came together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWCRCP6GO44

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The Nerf bars aren't exactly 100% effective as was seen at Long Beach this year, when Marco Andretti and Graham Rahal came together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWCRCP6GO44

Seems to have worked pretty effectively.
The result would have been far worse if the wheels were directly in contact with one another!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seems to have worked pretty effectively.
The result would have been far worse if the wheels were directly in contact with one another!

It didn't prevent the car from riding up over the rear right wheel, which was the purpose of the Nerf bar. What prevented it from being worse is the new car isn't flat bottomed like the old Dallara and so didn't take off.

[GT6]

Closed cockpits would be just dreadful what do they think they are trying to do

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by GT6

Closed cockpits would be just dreadful what do they think they are trying to do

They could be made to look good though.....there aree a couple of interesting CGI renders out there....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The Nerf bars aren't exactly 100% effective as was seen at Long Beach this year, when Marco Andretti and Graham Rahal came together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWCRCP6GO44

Compare Conor Daly wheel hop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfXCZa1yYc

Also missed his head this time, but, protection needed!

[bravo]

Did you see where Daly's detached wheel went?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXszF...tailpage#t=46s

Collected by a following car's wheel luckily.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bravo

Did you see where Daly's detached wheel went?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXszF...tailpage#t=46s

Collected by a following car's wheel luckily.

Good spot Bravo, missed that entirely!

Slam dunk for the cockpit protection case.

[ASCII Man]

Since when did everyone become such pansies?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Since when did everyone become such pansies?

Burying your friends and colleagues and explaining to families what happened in clearly preventable and predictable circumstances just sucks!

That's when you become a "pansy".

[ASCII Man]

Nice attempt at a guilt trip there. *tip nonexistent hat*

Quite frankly the proposals I've seen so far have been of the kind a 4 year old would come up with using crayons and the bedroom wall.
Like that proposed rollbar in front of the driver, which would actually cause a lot more harm in impairing vision than it would solve in a wayward tire flying at the cockpit area.

But hey, no shame in clutching at straws, I suppose.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Since when did everyone become such pansies?

Burying your friends and colleagues and explaining to families what happened in clearly preventable and predictable circumstances just sucks!

That's when you become a "pansy".