IMSA DPi Discussion

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by TF110

It's too bad that both parties cant come together on this.

There is no 'come together' on this. The two sides were far apart from minute one - the ACO wants a LMPC on a bit of a steroids, IMSA wants a new top class. Both agreed that they could do so based on a common central chassis, and IMSA enacted massive restrictions of the bodywork changes to make this easier for everyone who makes new bodywork. But now, months from the debut of this new platform, out comes the boneheads in France telling IMSA that they are doing things wrong by allowing exactly what the rules were designed to do in the first place. What does this tell IMSA? What is IMSA supposed to do in this scenario if they want to retain the Le Mans link?

Seriously gentlemen, the single solitary reason this is happening is because General Motors, Volkswagen-Audi, Mazda and Nissan have showed major interest in racing IMSA-spec prototypes rather than spending tens of millions of Euros on Le Mans. So, the ACO, having agreed to this in an attempt to allow IMSA to stay working with them despite the fact that these moronic rules are going to put at least two of the builders who have sustained IMSA for years out of business (to be fair, one kinda goofed it in any case), is now objecting because IMSA might just show up the mighty Automobile Club de L'Ouest. IMSA, if they really are looking to advance their series, need to tell the ACO to shove off in this case, because running their psuedo-spec cars is gonna make a mockery of IMSA's top class and not running them it seems slams the door shut for those who actually do want to race at Le Mans. To heck with them, what happens here matters more to those who race here.

[TF110]

We don't need countless explanations about what the cars were originally intended to be. We all know the plan and it changed. All there is now is opinions on why and whats to come.

[carbsmith]

So let's just say that the ACO were to allow DPi cars to run at Le Mans with custom ECUs. WTR wins Petit or the championship or whatever the hell convinces the ACO to invite them to Le Mans with their factory backed Dallara Cadillac or whatever. The ACO goes to dyno the motor to match it against the Gibson, but in the great IMSA tradition GM sandbags the crap out of the engine mapping so suddenly when night qualifying hits WTR spanks everyone by two seconds and disappears off into the distance on race day and Cadillac wins at Le Mans.

Can you imagine what an embarrassment for everyone that would be?

But we wouldn't even get that far because putting every IMSA engine on an ACO dyno is totally unrealistic. They need the ECU data to tell them how the engine is performing in the car. If that data and the options in the computer aren't standardized using the engine against the Gibson standard engine is a complete non-starter.

I'm actually surprised IMSA would even entertain it given their need to BoP, but in their case they're balancing bodywork at the same time and they can take about 12 guesses at it a season. At Le Mans the engines need to be equal, period.

DPi's in P1? It won't happen unless it's someone that just wants to circulate for 24 hours like Krohn, and they would never get invited that way anyways. That's a (realistic) threat to IMSA about what they will do to keep their cars technically eligible if they can't guarantee their fairness in P2.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

There's no "allowing" DPis into P1L, they flat out fit the rules as long as they run to the fuel flow limit.

There's the answer, staring us in the face is it not?

DPis apply for LMP1 (non-htbrid) Le Mans entries - end of problem...


OK what are we missing, other than conspiracy theories?

Mariantic

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by mariantic

There's the answer, staring us in the face is it not?

DPis apply for LMP1 (non-htbrid) Le Mans entries - end of problem...

I support this as DPi should compete in LMP1-L, problem solved! Then again, ACO would get angry that petty manufacturers like GM and Nissan are competing against privateers in non-hybrid prototypes.

Meanwhile, would it be better if LMP2 regulations will have the same chassis dimensions as LMP1 so it can be converted from one class to another?

[Akrapovic]

But aren't we looking at manufacturer backed teams in DPi? Wouldn't that be against the whole idea of LMP1L? I thought that was meant to be private teams only. It isn't about the ACO getting angry, it's about what the classes are meant to be.

You risk losing teams like Rebellion if you allow WTR to basically turn up as a factory Cadillac and run in be same class.

[August]

How far is the DPi concept from the principles of LMP1-Private?

http://www.fiawec.com/presentation/classes.html

The LMP1 Private Teams category is reserved exclusively for independent private teams. A team that is independent of a manufacturer means a team that does not benefit from any support from a manufacturer other than for the single supply of engines, services relating to these engines or commercial support. Any support from a manufacturer relating to the chassis or to chassis systems is prohibited. It is understood that traction control is considered as a chassis system.

So, the OEM engine is OK. But the DPi chassis isn't built by the OEM, so also OK. The branded bodywork is in the gray area; yeah, it has OEM branding but it's intended only for styling, not to improve aerodynamics.

Plus the DPis aren't run by OEMs but entities like WTR, AXR, etc.

Another thing is if a DPi would be competitive in P1-Private.

[gttouring]

Wow I got dizzy reading this all. The ACO will do what then run a 'private' label to essentially low budget teams to make new sub-categories now everyone gets a ribbon?
This is ridiculous.
What happened to race the cars?
P, GT class , solved it. So what if the current LMP-H runs away, this is currently the top prototype. When hybrid tech starts to trickle to other squads there will be a few years of challenge from lowly teams to factories, until the next revolution. LeMans and all the IMSA races are the now cliché alphabet soup, and it is looking like a club track day out there.

[Deleted]

I simply can't understand how many seem to be supporting the idea of having "DPi" in LMP1 Non-Hybrid. It's the worst idea in the bin of bad ideas in every way imaginable.

As for the top American class being lower end machinery... I really don't care if they have hybrids or not there, or even particularly new tech, you know I would be fine with a little bit more conventional prototype machinery. But you can't have performance balanced spec cars running Indycar level of aerokits as your top feature prototype class and except everyone to take it seriously. The proposed "DPi" is just as filler as 2017-LMP2 is, just with glitter on top designed to think it's supposedly something grander than it actually is.

[Dyson Mazda]

What are the chances that there is even going to be a LMP1-L beyond 2017? If I am Rebellion, it makes a lot more sense to go race for overall wins in IMSA than it does to get blow away by factory teams with $100m budgets.

If I am the ACO, I just accept IMSA DPi as the LMP1-L class for 2018. This way, if the top of P1 falls apart, they will still have an all-pro, manufacturer supported class to fall back on.

IMSA did not really deviate from their original plan very much. The only thing they changed was varying electronic packages. What is happening is that IMSA has a better model, they are getting numerous manufacturers to sign on the dotted line, and the ACO is getting jealous. The same thing happened in 2008, when the ALMS's P1/P2 classes were the prototype grid on earth at the time. The ACO drastically changed the rules and it ended up killing off the series over the next few years.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by mariantic

There's the answer, staring us in the face is it not?

DPis apply for LMP1 (non-htbrid) Le Mans entries - end of problem...


OK what are we missing, other than conspiracy theories?

Mariantic

As long as the DPi is able to be, and is, BoPed to the same level as the LMP1s of the class it should work fine. Also as long as the 'driver requirements' are met I do not think that it should matter (performance wise) if it is a privateer or werks car as it will be coming from a tightly regulated class in IMSA. Also I do not think that many of the OEM werks teams would really be interested in a prototype 'class' win. We know for sure that a hybrid will win, unless there is an absolute calamity that takes out the entire LMP1-H class.





L.P.

[Irie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

As long as the DPi is able to be, and is, BoPed to the same level as the LMP1s of the class it should work fine. Also as long as the 'driver requirements' are met I do not think that it should matter (performance wise) if it is a privateer or werks car as it will be coming from a tightly regulated class in IMSA. Also I do not think that many of the OEM werks teams would really be interested in a prototype 'class' win. We know for sure that a hybrid will win, unless there is an absolute calamity that takes out the entire LMP1-H class.





L.P.

Please don't apply BoP in LMP1 if they want to race in LMP1 (not that I'm a fan of the idea) they race to the same rules as everybody in the class (even if there are two sub classes in reality, LMP1 and LMP1-L). If they are hoplessly of the pace it's their problem and not one of the ACO that they should need to solve with BoP.

[Deleted]

And again and again, how exactly do you plan to BoP-down the 12 second gap there currently is between LMP1 Non-Hybrid and LMP2 at Le Mans qualifying, even if that were to decrease by couple of seconds by the more powerful engine?

And as I said, if you were to somehow achieve that by dumbing everything down, it would be slam in the face for LMP1 for no reason.

I say this... if this disgrace were to happen, the only class truly worth following to me will be the factory LMP1. Because
LMP1 Privateer & DPi Joint - Bloody Joke of Epic Proportions
LMP2-2017 - Spec spec spec spec spec
LMGTE - Bop crap extraordinare

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Irie

Please don't apply BoP in LMP1 if they want to race in LMP1 (not that I'm a fan of the idea) they race to the same rules as everybody in the class (even if there are two sub classes in reality, LMP1 and LMP1-L). If they are hoplessly of the pace it's their problem and not one of the ACO that they should need to solve with BoP.

Well hell with it then, drop them in P2 and let them kick the ass off of the ACO spec model. If the P2 can't keep up, to bad! Right? ...

edit: Also, reading is fundamental! Try reading the FIRST sentence of the post.





L.P.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

What are the chances that there is even going to be a LMP1-L beyond 2017? If I am Rebellion, it makes a lot more sense to go race for overall wins in IMSA than it does to get blow away by factory teams with $100m budgets.

That is a good point. The class consists of 2 teams and a total of 3 cars. Not exactly a shining beacon of success.

[Deleted]

Rebellion doesn't have to give up LMP1 just to do those American endurance races, they can just rent LMP2 as they have the money to do so. And as the suggested possibility seems to be for 2017 (they were on the ground at Daytona this year too). Of course, they would much rather take their LMP1s to States, you know so that they wouldn't be forced to run spec cars and endure performance balancing and other lamo rules, but they are not allowed to. Partly due to common excuse concept where no-one is supposedly interested in running in LMP1 anymore.

[TF110]

Theres new p1 regs in 2018. So if dpi gets popular, what does the ACO do if it proves to be the more popular alternative? Imo, it might sound unlikely, but imsa could possibly influence the aco to change up the rules in privateer p1. If manufacturers make a 'gt3 lmp1' (a factory car bought and ran by private teams) it could be really popular. Go back to the Oreca 908 as a close example. It will require a rule rewrite, but already you hear about chassis constructors wanting to team up with a manufacturer to go to lmp1.

[Deleted]

It's a admirable viewpoint, but you can't mandate the big manufacturers to build (hybridless I assume) customer cars, or partner up with lower makes like Onroak or whomever if they don't want to. Or well I guess you can, but force feeding something through the throats isn't the way forward and will drive people off.

If they wanted to freely offer ex cars to the customers like Pug did (and Audi before too) they already would have.

I'm always open to Penske of course fulfilling that Porsche rumor

Anyway, even if everyone did offer customer cars, you can't have customer market if your category is only being allowed to race in one series, where they would still have hard time competing against the factories anyway. Sportscar categories do not survive in single location environment. LMP1s need to go to (at least) ELMS too. That is the issue.

[TF110]

No mandate needed. Rebadge jobs are already underway! An upgraded p2 is fine.

[Deleted]

Uhm.

Meanwhile, Leventis said on RLM that LMP1 is still being considered for Strakka, so it might not all be gone.

[DeezPutz]

Ugh. I can't read all this. IMSA is building a class that the ACO doesn't like, because they know LMP1 is stagnant.

THAT'S THE FACT JACK.

[RWill2073]

Couple random thoughts:

If these DPi's are going to be faster than current P2's or faster than ACO P2's, then I will be much more excited about them. I'm curious how the designs will look, and am cautiously optimistic we could see a situation where IMSA has prototypes comparable in comparison to when ALMS had a top class of Muscle Milk Aston Martin or Porsche, Dyson Mazda, Drayson Lola, Fernandez Acura compared to the Audi/Peugot extreme top class. If the comparison between P1-H and IMSA DPi is similar to that, then great.

I'm not sure I understand all the complaining about subclasses of classes. Didn't Sebring used to have like 10-15 different classes some years? I don't see a problem with P1-H, P1-L, DPi, P2, GTE, GTE-Am at Le Mans. I'd rather see that than a BOP fiasco.

The ACO is doing its best to ruin sportscar racing. They openly competed with the ALMS and contributed to its demise. (I realize they didn't need much help). They have turned Le Mans into a race of about 25 true race cars. The rest of the field is either spec P2s, or mandatory amateur teams. And of those 25, there's some like Rebellion that are not competitive in a subscribed class. I'm still irritated that they destroyed the old P2 class that allowed the Penske Porsches and Acuras. They turned P2 into a noticeably weak by comparison class. Because of all this, I'm happy IMSA will have their own class of prototypes. They may not be inspiring, but they might be pretty fun to watch.

Interesting that ACO takes a dump on IMSA right as they begin gaining momentum. They just had two highly entertaining endurance races, without needing the ACO, and were progressing with apparent interest from manufacturers in the DPi's, and all of a sudden the ACO decides to go back on their agreement. The sooner there's a change in leadership and direction in the ACO, the better.

[carbsmith]

I doubt DPi will be quicker than WEC LMP2, but it entirely depends on which single supplier tire is quicker. They both have the same power targets and the manufacturer bodywork shouldn't really speed the cars up.

The ACO can far more afford to lose a couple US P2 teams than it can to anger all of the ELMS and WEC ones that make up some 40% of the field.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

I doubt DPi will be quicker than WEC LMP2, but it entirely depends on which single supplier tire is quicker. They both have the same power targets and the manufacturer bodywork shouldn't really speed the cars up.

The ACO can far more afford to lose a couple US P2 teams than it can to anger all of the ELMS and WEC ones that make up some 40% of the field.

I've been wondering about the tires myself, will Conti make a new better tire for the DPi cars? Or just stick to what they currently have?

[Rcz]

Wasn't the target range for the new cars going to be around 600hp? That would be a step up from the old P2 cars 450hp.