Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[SWCRacing]

Originally Posted by Chigley

I would like to know who are the MSA knuckle heads and which MSA committee can't read or listen. Consultation my arse, looks good, reads good, means absolutely FA.

That would be the members of the Race Committee, you can find out who they are on page 17 of the 2014 Blue Book. I'm sure they will appreciate being called knuckle heads.....

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

That would be the members of the Race Committee, you can find out who they are on page 17 of the 2014 Blue Book. I'm sure they will appreciate being called knuckle heads.....

I wonder how many of them have been active flag marshals at any time in the recent past or even at all?

[roys1]

I am surprised that Chris Hobson hasn't been on here yet.. I had a feeling he may have been on this meeting and could explain how all that can be done single manned...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I wonder if the clubs are allowed to write their own rules as I vaguely remember they did in original Battenberg days saying something like "Ignore the Blue Book and amendments, at our meetings we do it the good old-fashioned way" ?

That would be fun and would really make it worth listening carefully to the morning briefings .

Steve

Now that really would be a recipe for chaos. See how the safety car regs were such a shambles a few years ago. (Now they are still very wrong but at least mostly uniformly wrong!)

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

That would be the members of the Race Committee, you can find out who they are on page 17 of the 2014 Blue Book. I'm sure they will appreciate being called knuckle heads.....

I'm sure they are used to it by now.

Jim

[Paul Newns]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Nice as a party trick - I don't think I came across anyone else who could do it in 30 years of flagging!

I said I can do it. I didn't say I could do it well. It's actually damned difficult, and that's without wind, rain, etc. My point really was that my flags are light, circuit flags are not, and with them it will be near impossible.

Not sure I share your optimism that a 'good technique' can be found.
I certainly do not envy you the task of trying to 'sell' this idea to a room full of flag marshals at the next training day.

It's not a matter of selling it. The MSA require us to do it and therefore we need to see if, between us, we have any techniques that may help. There may not be any. Race Gypsy has explained how and why the Americans use two yellows (many thanks for that), and that clearly won't help us. So what can we do?

I try to be positive about most things. Seeing the downside doesn't usually get me anywhere.

One positive is that in a Safety Car situation, two yellows at the post preceding the incident will highlight where it is. The old system of single waved everywhere didn't do that, which I always thought was rubbish.

As you say, I've got to deliver training and at the moment I don't have answers, so I'm open to ideas/suggestions from anyone.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

As you say, I've got to deliver training and at the moment I don't have answers, so I'm open to ideas/suggestions from anyone.

There will be many who will be delivering training re Flags up and down the country and I suspect all of them similarly have no answers ..... what we need is some consistent material to get things off on a common footing across the circuits/clubs along with a means of developing a FAQ body of knowledge.

I have queried the MSA with regards to this.


I have also raised a question regarding "Live Snatch" where for some circuits the Clerks have required the use of DWY, SWY, Y across three flag points leading up to the snatch operation (I know DWY never existed anyway pre 2014 but I do have an answer from the MSA Technical Director to explain that particular oddity).


Dave

[Alan Green]

Having read, and re-read this a few times, is this not just implementing FIA flag rules and standardising procedures??

- waved yellow at the incident OR preceding a double waved yellow
- double waved yellow for an obstructed track incident OR marshals are working at the trackside
- waved green following the incident
- red flags around the circuit in both directions except for where the incident is (although that doesn't appear in this extract)

Yes it raises the questions for those circuits who won't / can't invest in fixed / freestanding SC & Hazard boards, but that's something that the circuit liason folks will need to address.

As for needing both hands to flag and also potentially phone / write, then that's up to your judgement on the day if you're told you're single manned without an observer. If you don't feel safe / comfortable doing that, ask to be reassigned to something you're happy doing, or apologise & leave. Put the 'what is adequately manned?' question back in the hands of the stewards.

Personally, I don't see the issue. As experienced flag marshals we've all used FIA / international flags before on 'minimal' manning levels and handled incidents appropriately. Those of us who use circuits with snatch have used double yellow for those (NOT white flags, those of you who still do...), and had no problems.

I would suggest that if you are flagging solo, then the solution would be for the green flag post to call in / respond where they can see double-waved yellows are deployed. If your green flag is not in sight of the double yellows post, then you are certainly not in an adequately manned situation. There's no reason or flag point at a circuit I can immediately think of where a green flag post couldn't see what was blocking the track (& therefore cause a double-yellow) and therefore be able to report what was happening.

The flag marshals primary role is to get messages to the drivers of what is the situation on that section of the track where you are. That has to come first. You don't want to make a bad situation worse by trying to do other things. If I have a blocked track, I'll be waving both yellow flags and sod everything else until I feel in a comfortable state to do anything else like write reports.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

As for needing both hands to flag and also potentially phone / write, then that's up to your judgement on the day if you're told you're single manned without an observer. If you don't feel safe / comfortable doing that, ask to be reassigned to something you're happy doing, or apologise & leave. Put the 'what is adequately manned?' question back in the hands of the stewards.

Personally, I don't see the issue. As experienced flag marshals we've all used FIA / international flags before on 'minimal' manning levels and handled incidents appropriately. Those of us who use circuits with snatch have used double yellow for those (NOT white flags, those of you who still do...), and had no problems.

The flag marshals primary role is to get messages to the drivers of what is the situation on that section of the track where you are. That has to come first. You don't want to make a bad situation worse by trying to do other things. If I have a blocked track, I'll be waving both yellow flags and sod everything else until I feel in a comfortable state to do anything else like write reports.

The problem is that we shouldn't have to be making that judgment call. The old flag system worked perfectly well!

If we end up with an incident with double waved yellows and oil on the track what do we do? Have both waved yellows and no oil flag so drivers spin off on it, or drop a yellow, have an oil flag and then the drivers think the incident is up the road somewhere!, same goes for if a service vehicle is on track....I can see single sweaters underneath low loaders at this rate!

I'd love to hear the msas reasoning behind this shambles.....an answer to a question that didn't exist!

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

(edited) Race Gypsy has explained how and why the Americans use two yellows (many thanks for that), and that clearly won't help us. So what can we do?

Edited

One positive is that in a Safety Car situation, two yellows at the post preceding the incident will highlight where it is. The old system of single waved everywhere didn't do that, which I always thought was rubbish.

As you say, I've got to deliver training and at the moment I don't have answers, so I'm open to ideas/suggestions from anyone.

I should have added that for any Full Course yellow situation, safety car or not, the post with the incident does NOT go double yellow, but continues to flag the incident, so drivers can recognize the location. This is also useful should you have a subsequent incident after the FCY comes out.

Although this is not a thread about communications they have been referred to several times. In all the countries I marshal regularly every year (9) the UK is the only one which still uses phone technology, or if radio with no talk-through, so posts only know their own comments. All the others, whether radio or land line have full open communication, so all posts hear everything. Additionally most have a base station which records the conversation to disk or logger. It if rare to be asked for a written report at these circuits unless there is a judicial issue which requires a signed witness statement. The other thing with this is they have a strict voice procedure, often very scripted - location and immediate requirements-for all initial calls. No story telling until the situation is stabilized and Race Control will then ask for a detailed account of how the incident happened.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

Having read, and re-read this a few times, is this not just implementing FIA flag rules and standardising procedures??

No.

It is certainly not implementing FIA regs as the use of the yellows differs markedly ie normally no yellow at the preceding flag point whereas the MSA have a yellow there.

Dave

[Chigley]

That would be the members of the Race Committee, you can find out who they are on page 17 of the 2014 Blue Book.

Thank you I didn't know that.
I read with disbelief, regarding this regulation change, who some of the race committee members are.

[Greem]

So far as I am aware (on not-first-hand information), the issue went to a vote, the results of which may be surprising.

It certainly didn't go through without difficulty, put it that way...

[Richard Duvall]

Having read the new rules regarding yellow, it seems to me that it merely formalises what we have been doing for ages, namely going to double waved yellow when marshals are working on track (ie live snatch). 15.1.1(d) still allows for single waved in other situations.

The waved green makes some sense as waved is more visible that stationary.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

Having read the new rules regarding yellow, it seems to me that it merely formalises what we have been doing for ages, namely going to double waved yellow when marshals are working on track (ie live snatch). 15.1.1(d) still allows for single waved in other situations.

The waved green makes some sense as waved is more visible that stationary.

I don't think I've EVER gone double waved yellow for snatch!

Just our of interest, if the incident is well off track we only need to have a single waved yellow, does that mean the post before still has to have a single waved yellow too?

To me there are a couple of ways of making this work...ensure all posts have 2 flaggie a...or cancel the meeting, or put a holder on the front of each post...so you can slot the handle of a flag into it which would allow a stripy flay or white flag to hang vertically while you are waving double yellow....also safety/hazard boards need to be mounted on the post so they can be used easily

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

Having read the new rules regarding yellow, it seems to me that it merely formalises what we have been doing for ages, namely going to double waved yellow when marshals are working on track (ie live snatch). 15.1.1(d) still allows for single waved in other situations.

The waved green makes some sense as waved is more visible that stationary.

How extra visible does the green need to be? Once the driver has entered a yellow zone he will be explicitly looking for the green and should be less 'on it' if he is obeying the rules.
Bringing in a waved green takes longer than a stationary and delays getting back to using the blue.

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

Having read the new rules regarding yellow, it seems to me that it merely formalises what we have been doing for ages, namely going to double waved yellow when marshals are working on track (ie live snatch). 15.1.1(d) still allows for single waved in other situations.

The waved green makes some sense as waved is more visible that stationary.

I must have led a really sheltered life. I know I've only marshalled at 5 or 6 different circuits and for 8-9 clubs but at none of those have we ever used double yellows for anything. I can't even recall ever seeing 2 yellows in the standard circuit flag pack anywhere.

Anyway as Paul says the regs have been published so now we have basically two choices:
- we can try to work out how to live with it while minimising the chaos as much as possible (with any luck only for a year or so until reality sets in and we go back to the original way of doing things)
- or we can give up flagging and let someone else sort it out (until reality....)

At some circuits and for some clubs it won't be a big problem. Where there are plenty of marshals on post (e.g. in my world most meetings at Oulton, most 750MC meetings anywhere) we should be able to work something out. If there's only me flagging I'll handle the flags as well as I can manage but I ain't even attempting to do any other jobs on top. Reports/radios etc will have to be SEP (someone else's problem).

OTOH now I'm really looking forward to the training sessions where I will be hoping that those with a lot more experience (and probably intelligence) than me will have come up with some ideas.

Steve

[M Greenslade]

Here's a thought, maybe, just maybe Flag Marshals (of which I am one) and drivers themselves have contributed to this insanity by a) the over use of the yellow flag, i.e. perhaps waving it when all it needed was a stationery and b) because of this, the drivers now ignore them to a greater extent. The yellow flag over the recent years has become devalued and so the MSA now feels it must act in this situation and has done so, but perhaps not in the correct way.

When I have been training on post with a flag marshal, I have always said, and will continue to say, 'you can't wave an already waved flag' For whatever reason, we are where we are and we will just have to make it work. If though for some reason in my capacity as a Post Chief I see a double waved yellow flag for a car that has spun and is just getting away, I shall be very angry with that flag marshal - Please please do not over react and use good judgement.

Bladders….

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

Here's a thought, maybe, just maybe Flag Marshals (of which I am one) and drivers themselves have contributed to this insanity by a) the over use of the yellow flag, i.e. perhaps waving it when all it needed was a stationery and b) because of this, the drivers now ignore them to a greater extent. And so the MSA now feels it must act in this situation and perhaps not in the correct way.

When I have been training on post with a flag marshal, I have always said, and will continue to say, 'you can't wave an already waved flag' For whatever reason, we are where we are and we will just have to make it work. If though for some reason in my capacity as a Post Chief I see a double waved yellow flag for a car that has spun and is just getting away, I shall be very angry with that flag marshal - Please please do not over react and use good judgement.

Bladders….

Well if that's the case then in 10 years time we will be sitting here with a 3rd yellow flag waving from our arses......if drivers are getting too used to waved yellows and ignoring them then something needs to be done about driving standards not the flag system. I've both raced and marshal and always slow down for yellow flags....if drivers aren't paying attention then they should have their licences removed....let's face it, if you don't spot the person crossing the street and run them over, the council won't put 2 people there next time so you can see them more clearly!

[The Fat Clerk]

You could also argue that the positioning of flags is a contributing factor, as an ex single seat driver, when your bum is an inch off the ground and your nose cone is under the gearbox of the car in front, a flag 50 yards to the right or left is not exactly in line of sight is it?
I didn't back off for a waved yellow in most circumstances, just got ready to chance direction in a hurry.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Richard Duvall

Having read the new rules regarding yellow, it seems to me that it merely formalises what we have been doing for ages, namely going to double waved yellow when marshals are working on track (ie live snatch). 15.1.1(d) still allows for single waved in other situations.

It never should have been usual to have DWY for marshals trackside. I have had several "conversations" with other marshals including post chiefs regarding this.

Some circuits/clubs/clerks asked for DWY for live snatching (at Brands certainly) to give DWY, SWY, SY giving a 3 flag point yellow zone. This has never meant that the norm for marshals trackside was DWY.

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I must have led a really sheltered life. I know I've only marshalled at 5 or 6 different circuits and for 8-9 clubs but at none of those have we ever used double yellows for anything. I can't even recall ever seeing 2 yellows in the standard circuit flag pack anywhere.

As per my comment above.

Having 2 yellows in a flag pack is sensible as it doesn't require anyone to do anything extra to prepare for an FIA regs meeting or race.... indeed having 2 from the offset prevents the embarassing call to RC during a session when someone realises they should be using DWY for an incident in an FIA regs session . Certainly Brands and I am pretty sure Thruxton and Castle Combe have 2 yellows as standard.

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

Here's a thought, maybe, just maybe Flag Marshals (of which I am one) and drivers themselves have contributed to this insanity by a) the over use of the yellow flag, i.e. perhaps waving it when all it needed was a stationery and b) because of this, the drivers now ignore them to a greater extent. The yellow flag over the recent years has become devalued and so the MSA now feels it must act in this situation and has done so, but perhaps not in the correct way.

When I have been training on post with a flag marshal, I have always said, and will continue to say, 'you can't wave an already waved flag' For whatever reason, we are where we are and we will just have to make it work. If though for some reason in my capacity as a Post Chief I see a double waved yellow flag for a car that has spun and is just getting away, I shall be very angry with that flag marshal - Please please do not over react and use good judgement.

Bladders….

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

You could also argue that the positioning of flags is a contributing factor, as an ex single seat driver, when your bum is an inch off the ground and your nose cone is under the gearbox of the car in front, a flag 50 yards to the right or left is not exactly in line of sight is it?

Flag point positioniing is a major problem particularly at some circuits and is especially true at circuits with huge run-offs. If you add the problems of the location with others such as the background interference from other trackside "furniture" such as advertising hordings, flags etc and the increasingly obscured view of / ability to position oneself to flag well due to catch-fencing being badly placed means that in some places it is almost impossible for a flag to be seen irrespective of whether it is waved or not.

Dave

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

In all the countries I marshal regularly every year (9) the UK is the only one which still uses phone technology, or if radio with no talk-through, so posts only know their own comments. All the others, whether radio or land line have full open communication, so all posts hear everything.

The radio systems at Oulton, Anglesey & Croft have full open communication.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

The radio systems at Oulton, Anglesey & Croft have full open communication.

The ones we use for the Grand Prix at Silverstone are 'great', two Observers on the same post, maybe 100 yards apart have got no idea what the other one is reporting, so everything gets reported twice - marvellous system

[Woolley]

What has been interesting in this thread (only a little) but also in a Facebook discussion I've seen is how many marshals are flagging and don't understand or operate to the current regulations. I suppose one plus side of this is that we might start to train flag use properly again.

Is this change perhaps another symptom of the supposition that you can call someone an experienced flag marshal because they did five days on the job while seeking an upgrade for something else?

[Kangaroo75]

I wonder when the MSA are going to update the Post Chiefs report form to reflect the new flag rules, as of 2 mins ago (16:10 on 20/12/13) it still has a "stationary" tick box for Flag infringements