[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by GasperG

I was talking about Torque, Torque in diesel engine can drop but the power remains or even increases (power = torque * rpm), going even higher it starts to drop quickly.

Torque curve in NA petrol is a lot more even (level) in that 3.7 L you are looking at 300-400 Nm through the whole rpm range, but this means a very steep power curve, diesel engine has a lot more level power curve.

So was i. And so no!... its more like a flat torque curve from 4k to 4.6K RPM... torque curves can't drop so much as in a petrol (NA like Toyota or turbo like Porsche) because the compression ratios are higher, meaning the rotational momentum might not be enough to continue accelerating under such scenario.

( its the diesel creeping factor, "compression pumping loses"... that is why higher turbo pressures under all regimes ( and or pre-heating and activated diesel fuel ) seems so compelling and are more effective than in a petrol ( the higher the admission pressure and or reactive fuel, the faster the combustion, making diesel a naturally turbo engine)... perhaps why the reason Audi thought about a MGU-H coupled to the turbo turbine, there is more than turbo-lag )

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by GasperG

I doubt Toyota is achieving 500 Nm and the rated power is also less at 520 PS (383 kW) and probably around 9 to 10,000 rpm

Its evident they do ( close if not more than 500Nm). Of course there is the electric hybrid factor, and nothing can have more torque than an electric motor... but seems clear the Toyota engine is also pushed for the high levels of torque, making 10K RPM even 9K out of the question, attending the fuel restrictions.

( and you can bet also the top 'hp' figures, are also above the 520 PS.)

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

To me figures are:

audi 4.0 V6 TDI - TP 1000-1100Nm@2000-3000rpm -> FP >550hp@4000rpm

TMG 3.7 V8 - TP close to 500Nm@7000rpm -> FP >550hp@8500rpm

Of course, just speculation.

Porsche engine specs are harder to speculate.

Doubt the diesel is making more than 1000Nm... OTOH it could very well be doing above 4K RPM (1000Nm at 4200RPM is ~590 hp)

TMG 490Nm at 8500 RPM is ~584 hp

It all depends on the gearbox setups... engines are close in the 'hp' figures( FIA/ACO distorted fuel rules seems to enforce that)... so the battle will be not only about intense aero engineering, but also proper gearboxes ( reason why all road diesels seems so underused)

( fair, meaning equal fuel flows attending the *real* energetic contents could make a diesel advantage... this or pre-heating and activate the diesel fuel -> contouring administrative creeplings )


[ Porsche the same... its turbo -> more torque per unit of volume... so even if less displacement is also above the 400Nm for around 9K RPM]

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by TF110

Great video! Any indication of when it took place?

Funny the Toyota clearly uses the electric motors as engine start... it clearly takes off on electric power from pit at the beginning of video (start-stop tech good going)

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Doubt the diesel is making more than 1000Nm... OTOH it could very well be doing above 4K RPM (1000Nm at 4200RPM is ~590 hp)

TMG 490Nm at 8500 RPM is ~584 hp

It all depends on the gearbox setups... engines are close in the 'hp' figures( FIA/ACO distorted fuel rules seems to enforce that)... so the battle will be not only about intense aero engineering, but also proper gearboxes ( reason why all road diesels seems so underused)

( fair, meaning equal fuel flows attending the *real* energetic contents could make a diesel advantage... this or pre-heating and activate the diesel fuel -> contouring administrative creeplings )


[ Porsche the same... its turbo -> more torque per unit of volume... so even if less displacement is also above the 400Nm for around 9K RPM]

Infact I've written

TP 1000-1100Nm@2000-3000rpm

TP = torque peak

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Its evident they do ( close if not more than 500Nm). Of course there is the electric hybrid factor, and nothing can have more torque than an electric motor... but seems clear the Toyota engine is also pushed for the high levels of torque, making 10K RPM even 9K out of the question, attending the fuel restrictions.

( and you can bet also the top 'hp' figures, are also above the 520 PS.)

Nothing is evident if we don't know the rpm where it achieves max power.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Infact I've written

TP 1000-1100Nm@2000-3000rpm

TP = torque peak

Could be, but seems a little for the high, OTOH 2000 to 3000 RPM seems clearly on the low part...

In that telemetry video the R18 engine of 2013, rarely passes below the 3000 RPM... only in 2 occasions on the 2 slowest corners at Le Mans, for the rest is quite above 3K, matter of fact most of time during a lap that engine is above 4K (peaks on top of 4900 from 1th to 2th gear)...

So i don't think above 1000Nm will be possible... yet above 4000 RPM is quite possible... 1100Nm at 4K RPM is ~618 hp... at 4500 RPM is 695 hp... it would be a beating!... and so far its not what happens (even 1000Nm could be not possible for only 4L on fuel restrictions... but is close... for 4500 RPM the same story... close)

@ GasperG

I think Toyota ( or someone close) leaked top 9K RPM for the 2013 engine... we can extrapolate from there.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Japanese Autosport magazine,
in the first stints of Silverstone round, #8 car was in the fuel save mode accidentally.
So #8 was pushed by the AUDI.

[hcl123]

Don't know if that has any real meaning...i don't think so... all cars from all teams will be on fuel management mode (engine software) ALL the time, the team that relies on drivers to be easy on the right foot will be plagued by a shower of fuel related penalties, perhaps the only thing drivers are forbidden is brake with the left foot, the rest they can go as fast as they can.

Its not easy... F1 has 100Kg/hour of petrol... WEC hybrid petrols have less than 90Kg/hour, the Audi has 17% less with 83Kg/hour... and the cars are heavier than F1, relying on drivers for the management is asking for serious troubles -> Toyota knew what they were doing-> its controlled by telemetry ALL the time.

[Bandicoot17]

Disagree, they will still have an 'attack' mode and 'save' mode that using varying amounts of fuel per lap.

Of course we never got to see the true effect that this would have had because of the rain and Toyota getting the strategy bang on, somewhat negating any impact this would have had on lap times.

[hcl123]

I think that Toyota engine is already superb for the outdated tech that is

And here is the reason
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=3487

even with the "largess" of fuel flows favoring petrol, pushing high RPM above 8000 RPM... and 8 cylinders... doesn't bode well for fuel consumptions ( doubt Toyota makes miracles)

Considering *top* 8500 RPM (as the RPM of max power) that Toyota engine has 0.04308 grams of fuel per firing per cylinder, of max allowed to stay inside the fuel flow allowances

Considering the same for Porsche, but 10000 RPM (but is half cylinders)... 0.07325 grams of fuel per firing per cylinder, of max allowed to stay inside the fuel flow allowances ( no wonder they got top speeds)

Considering the same for Audi, but only 4500 RPM (its a diesel and 6 cylinders )... 0.10312 grams of fuel per firing per cylinder, of max allowed to stay inside the fuel flow allowances ( 139% more fuel per firing than Toyota for the RPM of top power, and diesel is more energetic, it will be no wonder if Audi starts to get the top speeds records... again...)

(something was quite not alright for Audi at Silverstone... besides crashes... guessing they need an engine overhaul, not only better aeros)

[GasperG]

Man, you totaly messed up your logic. 8 cylinders only tells you the friction loses will be higher than 4 cylinder. But the difference is minimal at powers these engines produce, this is critical in normal road cars where you drive with 0-30 kW of power.

Turbo engine can not rev as high as NA engine, or let me put it this way - it can but it loses power so there is no point in reeving it higher.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Man, you totaly messed up your logic.

Turbo engine can not rev as high as NA engine, or let me put it this way - it can but it loses power so there is no point in reeving it higher.

Ahh! ... and is my logic...

Anyway, perhaps you can enlighten us about the "volumetric", "thermal" and "mechanical" *efficiencies* of your logic

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Japanese Autosport magazine,
in the first stints of Silverstone round, #8 car was in the fuel save mode accidentally.
So #8 was pushed by the AUDI.

That explains why their pace wasnt as good early in the race and when they made a stop their pace was as good as the #7.

[TF110]

According to this tweet, https://twitter.com/francorjean/stat...50829086912512 sportauto claims Toyota uses and has been using brake by wire.

[Bandicoot17]

Anyone know if they're running a LM spec car this weekend?

[Bandicoot17]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113686

Well there you go, both TS040's will run in Le Man spec aero at Spa this weekend.

[TF110]

Or here if you want to see Toyota's PR site.

[nobster]

Good to see the car at Spa without that hideous looking front.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113686

Well there you go, both TS040's will run in Le Man spec aero at Spa this weekend.

To recap, Toyota and Porsche will be in low downforce trim, while Audi will only have one car in low downforce and 2 in high downforce? It will be interesting to see the top speed numbers.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by nobster

Good to see the car at Spa without that hideous looking front.

They look nearly the same head on. The big difference is the sloping front fenders, still those huge headlights aren't very elegant.

As for top speed, last year was 308kmh iirc. I think over 310-315kmh this year is reasonable!

[Ferrari333SP]

Mmmmm, over 5 minutes of pure Toyota TS040, courtesy of DRIVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUFH60cqn40

[GT6]

Enjoyed that thank you for posting link

[GT6]

Originally Posted by TF110

They look nearly the same head on. The big difference is the sloping front fenders, still those huge headlights aren't very elegant.

As for top speed, last year was 308kmh iirc. I think over 310-315kmh this year is reasonable!

The car is fast and looks good except for those horrid front lights, surely toyota with all their resources could do something to make them look a little less like a last minute bolt on

[TF110]

Maybe the big bulbs give them the desired brightness. I remember the drivers saying the 2012 style lights werent as bright. Not very elegant but if it wins races its ok in my book!