Yellow flags - Holland vs. UK

[graeme]

I was racing at Zandvoort last weekend and was amazed at the live-track recoveries. If someone went into the barriers or the gravel, one of half-a-dozen trucks around the circuit would be dispatched to put a tow-rope on it and get it cleared. Once, in particular, was at a blind entry hairpin with zero run-off, so both vehicles were still on track. All of this under waved yellows – no safety car or red flag as it would have been in the UK. Having figured this was standard procedure, if I came across a waved yellow I was very careful and slowed a lot as it probably meant a truck on track around the next corner.

Have we got a catch-22 situation in the UK? A waved yellow often means a car 20-yards off on the grass, so drivers get conditioned not to slow too much for it. Then when there’s a bigger incident, there’s nowhere to escalate to from a waved yellow, so the only option is the regular safety cars or red flags we seem to get for relatively innocuous incidents because drivers aren’t heading the yellows enough.

[M Greenslade]

A waved yellow often means a car 20-yards off on the grass

It begs the question 'why was a waved used when a stationery would have been enough' after all you can't wave a waved flag!

Bladders....................

[Dan Friel]

A fine summary of the problem.. as discussed in other threads, the waved yellow is massively overused (and therefore its significance is watered down).

[Woolley]

Couldn't agree more with all of the above. Zandvoort sounds exactly the way it ought to be done - and in fact, used to be.

[deley]

absolutely - too much yellow and far too much waving going on .... keep up like this and we'll need to invent another colour

[Piglet]

I agree with the points on flagging, live on-track recoveries though is a different ball game.

The legal test for negligence is "was it reasonably foreseeable" that something might occur.

To me, an on-track recovery comes into that category, was it reasonably foreseeable that an (unsighted?) competitor could collide with a recovery truck that was ontrack. That's a big "yes" in my book and we'd be sued accordingly.

The world is not the place it once was where people accepted risks.

[Hepatic]

part of the difference (i think, certainly used to be) is that the Dutch had to change the way they dealt with incidents due to the lack of marshals. they did not have enough to cover a post like we do with marshals assigned certain duties, so the posts tended to be post cheif and flaggies and all the incident handling was passed to response trucks. its the same in america so the way the incidents are handled are different and so is the way they get flagged.

i did the A1GP at Zandvoort a few years ago and the different way of doing things was interesting. Helped me a lot in getting a better understanding of incident handling and there are plenty of different ways to achieve the same outcome.

[Power Bulge]

absolutely - too much yellow and far too much waving going on .... keep up like this and we'll need to invent another colour

My vote for the new colour, as an incident marshal, is that it should be BROWN!!!

[M Greenslade]

My vote for the new colour, as an incident marshal, is that it should be BROWN!!!

Or Black with Orange flashes!!!!!!

Bladders..........

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by graeme

Have we got a catch-22 situation in the UK? A waved yellow often means a car 20-yards off on the grass, so drivers get conditioned not to slow too much for it.

Nope, spot on.

Personally, I try and reserve waved yellows for things on the track that you need to worry about and maybe avoid. A stationary yellow, IMHO, means "you keep it on the black stuff, whatever it takes!" - as long as you do, it shouldn't be a problem.

Not always easy though, as there are some marshals who expect to be covered by waved yellows, when ever they are the squishy side of the armco, and I've found myself waving it for people near the track (not just marshals, drivers getting out of stricken cars too). And mentally, the pressure to go waved to be consistent with what other flaggies seem to do is very strong.

In an ideal world then:-

Stationary yellow = keep it on the black stuff at all costs!
Waved yellow = even the black stuff isn't safe, be careful!

IMHO, it would be nice if we could get everybody at once to do it that way - i.e. keep flags stationary if the track itself is clear.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Piglet

and we'd be sued accordingly.

From clause f of Paragraph 80 of Section G of part 2 of the MSA Yearbook:-

"Yellow flag – Waved: Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary."

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that as long as a waved yellow flag signal is displayed promptly, then by not taking the care directed by the above instruction, it would be the driver who was the negligent party.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

IMHO, it would be nice if we could get everybody at once to do it that way - i.e. keep flags stationary if the track itself is clear.

You can't make hard & fast rules like that. If marshals are working close to the track the yellow should be waved - see the Blue Book, Q15.1.1. The skill comes in assessing the level of risk & flagging accordingly.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Stationary yellow = keep it on the black stuff at all costs!
Waved yellow = even the black stuff isn't safe, be careful!

Could we have that in next year's Blue Book!?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

You can't make hard & fast rules like that. If marshals are working close to the track the yellow should be waved - see the Blue Book, Q15.1.1. The skill comes in assessing the level of risk & flagging accordingly.

Why? If the driver knows to stay on the track or he might kill someone, then what purpose does actually waving the flag serve? What extra information does it convey that the stationary doesn't (assuming of course that you accept the basic premise that stationery yellow means just that)?

Does a waved yellow mean "No, honestly, I really mean it!" ? Does a stationary mean "you should probably be careful, but actually don't worry about it, I'll wave it if it's anything important"? This is the whole problem, that because we are too keen to wave the yellow when we 'really mean it' the stationary becomes diluted, and meaningless. We should all really mean it when we put a stationary out!

EDIT - I suppose it does depend on your definition of close. I'd accept that it should be waved if people are close enough that cars could have at least 1 wheel between the white lines and still contact or harm them, but any further than that a stationery *should* be sufficient.

[Bodysnatcher]

Not always easy though, as there are some marshals who expect to be covered by waved yellows, when ever they are the squishy side of the armco, and I've found myself waving it for people near the track (not just marshals, drivers getting out of stricken cars too). .

I'm afraid as the man responsible for putting marshals out into gravel traps, I'd be having VERY strong words with you if all we had in advance of an incident that marshals were present at was a stationary yellow.

in fact afaik - all marshals working trackside want to have the assurance of a waved yellow, which drivers obey
which is exactly what the Dutch have.
It's not the marshals & what they are doing (or not doing) that make the drivers behave, its the drivers

DWY - another can of the thingies tho..

Twice I've been out in a gravel trap when another car has joined us..
and that was under waved cover, nice dry track, clear day, count to 20 secs etc

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

It's not the marshals & what they are doing (or not doing) that make the drivers behave, its the drivers

But that's just a "them and us" attitude, and it has to be wrong. The problem is created by all parties. It won't change until the governing body decides to intervene, and I hope it's not after a serious incident occurs.

There are many many incidents where a marshal should be able deal with an incident, such as a breakdown away from the track, but it now seems to the default to wave the yellow. This is a marshalling the problem, and not a driving one.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

I'm afraid as the man responsible for putting marshals out into gravel traps, I'd be having VERY strong words with you if all we had in advance of an incident that marshals were present at was a stationary yellow.

Under status quo, you are right, because understandings are mixed and undoubtedly, there some drivers believe the message of a stationary yellow is my aforementioned "I'll wave it if it's important".

What I'm suggesting would only work if it was made very clear to everybody drivers and marshals and was implemented in on big "Okay, the new system is now in effect" push and everybody stuck to it - including stong deterrent penalties for the few drivers who ingnored marshal safety and lost control under even stationary yellows.

EDIT - PS. did the beach a few weeks ago...and also 13a more recently - I'm basically happy to help out where needed as long as there's variety along the way.

[Bodysnatcher]

I know you worked 4a with Chris, but it's time you chewed the fat with me I think.

If you did go out onto a live beach, would you do it again with just a single stationary yellow at 3?
even if the rules changed to say something like "we're really really going to take a dim view of bad behaviour this year"

I sure as hell would'nt

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by graeme

I was racing at Zandvoort last weekend and was amazed at the live-track recoveries. If someone went into the barriers or the gravel, one of half-a-dozen trucks around the circuit would be dispatched to put a tow-rope on it and get it cleared. Once, in particular, was at a blind entry hairpin with zero run-off, so both vehicles were still on track. All of this under waved yellows – no safety car or red flag as it would have been in the UK. Having figured this was standard procedure, if I came across a waved yellow I was very careful and slowed a lot as it probably meant a truck on track around the next corner.

Have we got a catch-22 situation in the UK? A waved yellow often means a car 20-yards off on the grass, so drivers get conditioned not to slow too much for it. Then when there’s a bigger incident, there’s nowhere to escalate to from a waved yellow, so the only option is the regular safety cars or red flags we seem to get for relatively innocuous incidents because drivers aren’t heading the yellows enough.

great post Graeme; I've done the majority of my racing with FISC and this is more-or-less how it's always been, Monza, Dijon, N'ring and others as well, not just confined to Zandvoort. From a driver's POV it works brilliantly as the flag use is clear and consistent, and we lose less track time as a result.
I can't work out whether continental marshals are braver or dafter or neither, it just is done differently over there.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I can't work out whether continental marshals are braver or dafter or neither, it just is done differently over there.

Perhaps the level of competition is less 'professional' in Holland and hence the drivers do not feel the need to win at all costs by ignoring flags.

Perhaps having a smaller no of tracks in Holland also contributes to a more common approach to flagging.

[Eddy V]

No, it is just the way it is done in either Holland, Germany (albeit bad marshalling here) or Belgium. Most of the snatching is done on a life track, we're just used to it.
When I'm in the UK I have to switch to the "hardly life snatching" mode. Not saying which one is the best, both ways have their merits. It does get dangerous once and a while when doing a LS.

Graeme, foreign (!) drivers will heed a lot more to those yellow flag situations than the local ones.

[Quintin03]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Perhaps having a smaller no of tracks in Holland also contributes to a more common approach to flagging.

Certainly not. Assen and Zandvoort have very different aproaches IIRC. Mostly due to the different nature of the track and dominant racing disciplines. Zandvoort has little run off and a great deal of elevation and obstaclas so marshalls are closer to the cars and can't see them for quite some time. Assen on the other hans has huge paved run off areas and is completely flat, even the banking in most corners has gone, which means the marshalls can take more risks. Not that that's good. I recall seeing a photo of a marshall nearly getting run over by an F3! Assen is also more used to motorcycle while Zandvoort hosts only two motorcycle races not even for the national championship but for an amateur championship of the DNRT. There could barely be more differences.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

If you did go out onto a live beach, would you do it again with just a single stationary yellow at 3?
even if the rules changed to say something like "we're really really going to take a dim view of bad behaviour this year"

I sure as hell would'nt

Having been out on the beach down the hill from 3 at last year's BTCC finale to get Hamilton's Civic, I can happily say that I wouldn't have gone there in a month of Sundays under a static yellow. That said, it *was* a BTCC race...

That was my first proper incident, too. Thanks, Stewie and big Lew

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

I'm afraid as the man responsible for putting marshals out into gravel traps, I'd be having VERY strong words with you if all we had in advance of an incident that marshals were present at was a stationary yellow.

Again, it's a what/where approach. At Paddock Hill there's no way you can have people in front of the wall without full advance warning, but for a small saloon class with a car by the wall at Copse you might be fine with a stationary. My inclination is always to go waved with marshals trackside because the peril is to them, not the drivers.

Perhaps the defiition for waved yellow should describe to the drivers why: Incident or debris on or near track or marshals present trackside. That's pretty much how I use it anyway.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

If you did go out onto a live beach, would you do it again with just a single stationary yellow at 3?

In the current climate, absolutely not. I totally agree with you that as things stand, an SY is not good enough, but what I'm suggesting is it ought to be. But, because we dilute the stationary yellow by waving it when we shouldn't, I expect drivers to conclude that only a WY is serious.

In an ideal(fantasy/dream/wishfully thought) world a stationary yellow *would* convey to them the message that they really must keep it on the black stuff.

In my mind, it is important to be able to convey to the drivers A) I'm in danger, keep it on the black stuff, and B) you're in danger look out!