2022 RSC Silly Season (WITH POLL)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Umai Naa describes the general ladder of motor racing without realising it but doing so in an attempt to downplay TCR. It's a headline act in Australia, just not in Supercar rounds.

Mixer has to make up points of weakness. Nobody would care if Seton or Herne never drove in a TCR race. Any supercars driver or has been for that matter as well.

TCR is a headline act in Australia?

I'm not over there but I can tell from the relatively ordinary depth of entries, the promotion attempts and coverage that it us very much 'trying to be better' rather than 'already there'

Anywhere in the world where there is a major touring car, silhouette or GT series; TCR is beneath them in status whether they run on the same bill or on their own.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by chunterer

TCR is a headline act in Australia?

I'm not over there but I can tell from the relatively ordinary depth of entries, the promotion attempts and coverage that it us very much 'trying to be better' rather than 'already there'

Anywhere in the world where there is a major touring car, silhouette or GT series; TCR is beneath them in status whether they run on the same bill or on their own.

Exactly + the main TCR championship, WTCR is completely uninteresting and doesn't mean a thing. It's a miserable shadow of WTCC's former glory.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by chunterer

TCR is a headline act in Australia?

I'm not over there but I can tell from the relatively ordinary depth of entries, the promotion attempts and coverage that it us very much 'trying to be better' rather than 'already there'

Anywhere in the world where there is a major touring car, silhouette or GT series; TCR is beneath them in status whether they run on the same bill or on their own.

In terms of the “Shannon’s Motorsport Australia Championship” tour in 2021, TCR was treated as the headline act while the Australian GT, Trans-Am and S5000 categories were very much the support acts to TCR, as far as the TV coverage and promotion was concerned.

Let’s see how that plays out in 2022 though.

Originally Posted by Matt K

WTCR is completely uninteresting and doesn't mean a thing. It's a miserable shadow of WTCC's former glory.

Seriously? WTCC was a one brand show from 2011-2016 with firstly Chevy then when they pulled out Citroen taking over being the only competitive cars at the front.

Current WTCR is a far superior product to that

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

In terms of the “Shannon’s Motorsport Australia Championship” tour in 2021, TCR was treated as the headline act while the Australian GT, Trans-Am and S5000 categories were very much the support acts to TCR, as far as the TV coverage and promotion was concerned.

The headline act of half a step above collective club racing though isn't a genuine headline act.

Originally Posted by one five five

Seriously? WTCC was a one brand show from 2011-2016 with firstly Chevy then when they pulled out Citroen taking over being the only competitive cars at the front. Current WTCR is a far superior product to that

The talent in the field was much deeper in WTCC, but the variety of cars in WTCR is better.

Also WTCR has been a one make show as well, with Lotti seemingly unable or unwilling to enforce his own rules on Lynk and Co, so they didn't sell a car for years and didn't really get BoP adjusted as the rules were meant to be imposed...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The headline act of half a step above collective club racing though isn't a genuine headline act.

While true, Supercars or the Australian Touring Car Championship seem to make no effort to accommodate Audi Sport, Honda JAS Motorsport, Hyundai N Division, Peugeot Sport etc, so what choice do they have when they are not welcome to race their touring cars in the actual ATCC?

While Rally1 of the World Rally Championship for instance are now also silhouettes, they at least cater to the preferences of Hyundai and Toyota as well as catering to Ford. Yet the ATCC doesn't seem to bother?

Where the WRC has market relevant four-cylinder hybrid hatchbacks, the ATCC seems unwelcoming to anything other than Detroit muscle cars. The spirit of touring car racing seems to be lost and replaced with Americana in the supposed premier touring car championship.

TCR at least gives VW, Honda or Peugeot fans or indeed Alfitsis something to cheer for - something sorely lacking for quite some time in the actual Australian Touring Car Championship!







Whatever happened to the idea of an overly enthusiastic tuning workshop being able to build their own Group 2 or Group A touring car and enter the ATCC (or Deutsche Rennsport Meisterschaft or JTCC as above)?!

While TCR has homologated makes, the potential to select an unhomologated brand and build one (or a production run) of those is still there.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

TCR at least gives VW, Honda or Peugeot fans or indeed Alfitsis something to cheer for - something sorely lacking for quite some time in the actual Australian Touring Car Championship!

That seems to be a club of one.

[benny41]

The bit that frustrates me with tcr is that there were promises that it was going to be different to supercars and aimed at a younger audience , yet the product that was wheeled out is exactly the same minus the noise and depth of entries. The race formats are almost the same , the production of the telecasts is the same
There is nothing in the promotion of the class that says anything differnt.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by one five five

Seriously? WTCC was a one brand show from 2011-2016 with firstly Chevy then when they pulled out Citroen taking over being the only competitive cars at the front.

Current WTCR is a far superior product to that

I was thinking more about the years 2005-2010, this was the golden age of WTCC in my opinion. Around 2011 the downhill began.

There is more variety in WTCR, however, the championship has little meaning and importance comparing to the old WTCC in my opinion. There are lots of weaknesses of the series that makes it totally uninteresting for me. It hardly resembles the 'top', 'world' championship of touring cars.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by benny41

The bit that frustrates me with tcr is that there were promises that it was going to be different to supercars and aimed at a younger audience , yet the product that was wheeled out is exactly the same minus the noise and depth of entries.

This is about where I think TCR should be at.

The guys who used to hot up Commodores are tuning Golfs, Audi's, Hondas and so on now. So you would think there is an enthusiast market there that is different to Supercars, but like the Superute scenario, it seems racing is more what you aspire to, rather than what you drive. So maybe the guy who tunes up his Golf still wants to watch a Camaro race.



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[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The talent in the field was much deeper in WTCC, but the variety of cars in WTCR is better.

Also WTCR has been a one make show as well, with Lotti seemingly unable or unwilling to enforce his own rules on Lynk and Co, so they didn't sell a car for years and didn't really get BoP adjusted as the rules were meant to be imposed...

This is not true.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by benny41

The bit that frustrates me with tcr is that there were promises that it was going to be different to supercars and aimed at a younger audience , yet the product that was wheeled out is exactly the same minus the noise and depth of entries. The race formats are almost the same , the production of the telecasts is the same
There is nothing in the promotion of the class that says anything differnt.

You expected cars with 5 wheels?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

This is not true.

Really!

TCR cars are meant to be available at a fixed price within 90 days or competition.

Nobody could buy a Lynk and Co for more than 2 years and even that first "sale" was to a Chinese team.

Not allowing the car to run in National Series undermined the BoP process and should not have been allowed for so many years while Lynk and Co refused point blank to sell cars to customer teams. Hyundai very nearly walked away over it. They probably should have been suspended from championship points until they were in compliance. Really it has also been run as a full factory team, which isn't meant to be allowed either.

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[benny41]

Originally Posted by FIRE

You expected cars with 5 wheels?

How about different race formats ?
Passing points? Joker laps ? Send the fast guy to the rear and give bonus points for the positions they gain.

Have you seen the way rally cross is presented is overseas. Create some excitment in the broadcast.

At the moment it looks and feels like supercars lite and it doesnt really appeal to new fans and i cant see it being sucssesful if its trying to draw fans from the same.

The racing and mix of cars is good but it will fade into oblivion if something isnt done differently

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The guys who used to hot up Commodores are tuning Golfs, Audi's, Hondas and so on now.

Originally Posted by Mixer

That seems to be a club of one.

Does not compute! Either it's one person or many. I reckon they would have been tuning Astra Turbos and Astra VXRs... Commodore SS and HSV products were always very big and very heavy compared to the Astra (well apart from the HSV that was an Astra).

Originally Posted by FIRE

You expected cars with 5 wheels?

I would've gone with reverse grids and success ballast like in BTCC.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Does not compute! Either it's one person or many. I reckon they would have been tuning Astra Turbos and Astra VXRs... Commodore SS and HSV products were always very big and very heavy compared to the Astra (well apart from the HSV that was an Astra).

They weren't really because the turbo ones didn't sell in enough numbers, the engine didn't really compare to the VAG engine for tuneability, and there isn't the same competitive aftermarket.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I would've gone with reverse grids and success ballast like in BTCC.

You can do this but then you have no sporting purity, more entertainment than racing.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by chunterer

TCR is a headline act in Australia?

Yes.

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm not over there but I can tell from the relatively ordinary depth of entries, the promotion attempts and coverage that it us very much 'trying to be better' rather than 'already there'

That's your impression from over there. That's fine. It's just early days for the class.

There are more factors than what you've stated that contribute to the popularity of the class.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Anywhere in the world where there is a major touring car, silhouette or GT series; TCR is beneath them in status whether they run on the same bill or on their own.

Outside the supercars rounds, it holds its own.

You might not be able to tell with Mixer and Matt K death riding the class. But there's a certain irony that it's the reverse of Europe. The regs that DTM run are the support class to TCR.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

While true.

Not it's not true. Guys like Mixer (and Matt K) just demonstrate their ignorance.

Referring to Shannons Nationals as being a half step above club racing is BS. It's an outlet for competitors to race in serious classes and cars for a national title. They're classes that would otherwise be support for ATCC/Supercars, just without the extra expense and attendance.

You look at the classes and the guys running them to recognise that's a genuine step up?

You read Mixer's post and he makes out like SN is a club regularity. In his ignorance, he demonstrates he has no idea that a mainstay of SN prior to TCR was the class known as Super3. "Nobody" went.

Another feature class is GTs. While they attract a fair amount of amateurs, all of these races feature supercars drivers. Not plodder and washed up has been, guys like Tander, SVG and Whincup. They attracted a much smaller attendance than TCR

In consecutive meets at PI, Alan Simonsen then Jack Le Broq broke the lap record in GT. Mixer will have you think that it's collective club racing. Pathetic.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You might not be able to tell with Mixer and Matt K death riding the class. But there's a certain irony that it's the reverse of Europe. The regs that DTM run are the support class to TCR.

Strange that the DTM calendar makes no mention of TCR even making it onto the DTM supports.... that honour seems to go to ADAC F4, DRM Klassic Pokal (a series for cars that contested the German Motor Racing Championship, DRM, held from 1971 to 1981) and Audi R8 races. Also "Tourenwagen Classics" which is a category owned by DTM and features Historic DTM cars is present at some meetings. (possibly alternating with the Klassic Pokal category.)

Im not sure what series support their (DTM) overseas rounds, but again no mention of TCR.

Im not sure of this year but up to last year TCR Germany seemingly ran as a support class to the German GT Masters

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point you are trying to make.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Then discuss it with chunterer.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Then discuss it with chunterer.

No disrespect to chunterer but I think I will take temporary leave from this thread which seems to have diverted from being about V8SC to more about status of TCR(outside of Australia.) My fault for taking the bait.
If I should feel the urge to discuss TCR in Aus there is already a thread for that.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The talent in the field was much deeper in WTCC, but the variety of cars in WTCR is better.

I think you need to go back and watch the WTCC from 2011-2016, deep fields were not something associated with those years in WTCC.

By comparison the current WTCR is a party.

Originally Posted by benny41

The bit that frustrates me with tcr is that there were promises that it was going to be different to supercars and aimed at a younger audience , yet the product that was wheeled out is exactly the same minus the noise and depth of entries. The race formats are almost the same , the production of the telecasts is the same
There is nothing in the promotion of the class that says anything differnt.

I get your point, and agree completely

3 heat races across Saturday and Sunday has become the “standard format” for all of Australian Motorsport in the last few years, except for “marquee events”

Originally Posted by Matt K

It hardly resembles the 'top', 'world' championship of touring cars..

So what exactly should a top world championship of touring cars resemble?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by E.B

Strange that the DTM calendar makes no mention of TCR even making it onto the DTM supports.... that honour seems to go to ADAC F4, DRM Klassic Pokal (a series for cars that contested the German Motor Racing Championship, DRM, held from 1971 to 1981) and Audi R8 races. Also "Tourenwagen Classics" which is a category owned by DTM and features Historic DTM cars is present at some meetings. (possibly alternating with the Klassic Pokal category.)

Im not sure what series support their (DTM) overseas rounds, but again no mention of TCR.

Im not sure of this year but up to last year TCR Germany seemingly ran as a support class to the German GT Masters

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point you are trying to make.

I believe his point was that the regulations DTM uses (GT3) is a support act for TCR in Australia (as the Australian GT Championship, run to GT3 regs, is a support act for TCR Australia.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You can do this but then you have no sporting purity, more entertainment than racing.

Hasn’t that been Supercars mantra for 25 years?

Reverse grids? Penalising the teams and manufacturers doing the best job? Fuel dumping? Permitting Jungle Juice to be used on some cars but not others? Aero changes to speed cars up or slow others down?

Supercars is hardly racing purity either.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Hasn’t that been Supercars mantra for 25 years?



Reverse grids? Penalising the teams and manufacturers doing the best job? Fuel dumping? Permitting Jungle Juice to be used on some cars but not others? Aero changes to speed cars up or slow others down?



Supercars is hardly racing purity either.

20 years since we had a reverse grid
Please don't mention Penske's 30 million dollar raid on our sport.
Fuel drop was to give a sporting equality to teams that had worse fuel economy.
Again, you mention the same thing twice.

Penske, as he does in most series, found a loophole and exploited it to the maximum, breaking the rulebook rather than the rules.

If the sport had not reacted and equalised the cars it would not exist now. It was bad enough that Lee Holdsworth could pass the entire field while Scotty Mac was driving around at half throttle for 6 months.

Look at the ebb and flow of the 2021 season and tell me there was any car advantage over any other? SVG was fast, Cam Waters was fast, Anton was fast, Chaz was fast. Someone was unbeatable on any given day but it wasn't always a Mustang like the previous 2 years.

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[Matt K]

2 Litre Touring Car Star - please man, stop your nonsense, there are no constructive arguments on your side, you're just trying to bash everyone who has a different opinion than you do. I wish you had more respect towards others but some people just don't have enough decency. I'm not going to discuss motorsport (and anything else) with you.
I hope it's the end of this off topic in the thread.