[DTM] Why there is no good solution for DTM's dilemma

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Most people don’t care, they are both called DTM, everybody views them as the same.

Are you assuming the opinion of the majority?
Is it assumption or knowledge that everyone views them as the same?

The OP sees them as different things.
'And this is why the series has survived for so long; with 20 years being an astonishingly long run for a professional series in Germany'

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Oh crikey, we are getting into a pointless technicality rather than actually discussing.

Reading the OP's first post on this thread, that technicality (or lack of appreciation of it) is part of DTM'S dilemma.

Normally I would agree that getting wrapped in technicalities can cause deviation from the topic. In this case though, I think it is a key part of the topic.

People not only seem to want DTM to be what it was 10 years ago, they also sometimes seem to want it to devolve to a former series that ceased to exist over two decades ago.

[Adam43]

A lot of people see it as a continuation, even if there was a break. It can be considered spiritually the same. Technically not but the main point is that a similar type series has had different styles through the ages. Grabbing the OP doesn't appreciate that the overall discussion is more than just what the OP laid out.

Which I believe is what you've just said. So why have the approach of having to say someone was wrong when actually the point is similar?

I'm quite lost what points people are making sometimes as it seems more important to prove someone wrong than actually discuss.

[S griffin]

Indeed, the DTM actually celebrated it’s 500th race last season, which included the previous incarnation. I remember they had plenty of past champions there that weekend

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

Now Motorsport-Total compare LMDh and DTM. https://www.motorsport-total.com/dtm...e-dtm-20050801



And I can not understand why those Class 1 cars were so absurdly idiotically expensive even if machinery was almost standard. Budgets were almost twice as big as DPi require. Were those "premier touring cars" made of platinum or what? Should they blame their trust into Premium label? Or ineffective management?

Besides, the article (in German) is full of strange conclusions itself. They say that LMDh is more "international" with racing all around the Globe. Well, Class 1 had two huge areas already (Europe + Asia) - it lacked America only, and could get some sort of Trans Am, and even South Africa (Wesbank or how it can be named today). Only if those standardised motorised advertising blackboards were not so absurdly expensive. How on Earth an absolutely standardised engine with frozen development for 5 years can cost more than DPi solutions?
As they write in other article, DTM's horse appeared to be too high. I'll add to that - no wonder it was shot.

While Class-1 has a lot of spec parts, it is not all spec - and crucially, there is no Balance of Performance. Hence, all the money one dumps into researching those 20% of the car that aren't spec, can actually buy you speed and give you a competitive advantage that the organizers will not take away from you. In that regard, DTM is actually quite old-school and I think overall that is an approach that should be celebrated not criticized, as DTM, despite all its flaws, was still the closest thing to a proper engineering contest that existed outside of F1 in Europe.

Now for those budget figures: with the introduction of the 2.0l turbo-engines, those 80 million that get thrown around for Audi's DTM budget in 2019 are probably not all that representative for what it costs to run in the series in a more typical year. In contrast to what is commonly believed (also in this thread), the new engines were not yet frozen and accounted for a large chunk of that budget, as development was still going on during the course of the 2019 season. I think, budgets would have settled down to a more managable 30-50 million once the engines were frozen again in 2020 or 2021. If the manufacturers had wanted, one could have further decreased that by freezing not just the engine, but all car development for five years, as is done in DPi/LMDH. With WTR citing a budget of €5 million for their two car program, a manufacturer could probably run a full complement of 8 DTM-cars for €20 million or so - which is incidentally the same number that gets thrown around for LMDH.

So in a nutshell, what makes DTM more expensive than LMDH are the things that set it apart, i.e. no BoP and no development freeze. If you run DTM like LMDH, the costs will be very similar.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I'm quite lost what points people are making sometimes as it seems more important to prove someone wrong than actually discuss.

I too am lost on what point some people are making.
I appreciate conversation will drift, and the topic can end up a long way from where it started.

My frustration comes from when you look for clarification, consistency and logic in posts, and requests for such are met with resistance and absurdity.

Back on topic, DTM should recognise it's past and celebrate it. Even include previous incarnations if that is what a portion of fans want to see.

But, the organisers and fans must accept that:

Previous incarnation(s) had their day and failed.
The current DTM is failing.
What once made it such an appeal, may be exactly why it is struggling today.
If you want to celebrate a 1,000th race in the future, and celebrate more champions, then you owe it to yourselves and their legacies to take off the blinkered, rose-tinted spectacles. Recognise that the world, motorsport and the motor industry is changing over the next few years at an unprecedented rate. DTM, if is to survive, must also do the same. If such change is not palatable, pull the plug now for the sake of those champions you celebrate, before their championship becomes one remembered as being killed off by dinosaurs, and not for the glory days you so proudly hail.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

In that regard, DTM is actually quite old-school and I think overall that is an approach that should be celebrated not criticized, as DTM, despite all its flaws, was still the closest thing to a proper engineering contest that existed outside of F1 in Europe.

The last interesting DTM tech bits came from Reuter and his Technik Ecke at ARD (was it 7-8 years ago?). From that time DTM bosses has done nothing to promote that engineering approach. Even the most tech brains in racing editorials, like Racecar Engineering, didn't have much about tech variety in DTM. If they couldn't do this then nobody can. And compare it with Super GT and Japanese Autosport magazine which always have tons of tech articles - and I firmly sure that GT500 has that tech approach. More to say, I'm on Masaaki Bando site when he says that DTM is all about advertising while Super GT is all about engineering. All in all, I'm interested in constructors' side of racing, and I haven't seen anything interesting from DTM for 6-7 years. If they have put 80 mln into new engines and still somehow managed to develop them (I've heard Audi wanted to make their engine a standard one for the whole DTM) - and used them only for 2 seasons - it's an absurd from managing point of view. Just loss of money with now "cashback" from planned 5 years of usage. Besides, it's known that Japanese have the same tight engine regulations and still want to develop blocks and use jet-ignition. And even if it take them the same amount of money (I'm not sure at all) they have far better management by the look of the things.

[Matt K]

You've been talking about possibility of DTM going back to its 'typically tin-top' roots and partly I agree, DTM doesn't have to be all about super advanced technologies, monocoques, silhouette racing and stuff. But the thing is, ever since DTM has gone into "touring car racing+" with Class 1 back in 1990s, it's been viewed as a faster and more powerful series. I sort of can't believe this could be changed now. Okay, TCR is somehow successful but DTM going to TCR or NGTC rules? Never. It'd be uninteresting, slow, boring. It's like Aussie Supercars. Touring cars but something different than 'typical' tin-tops like BTCC or WTCC in the past or TCR.

Also, comparing BTCC's success with no manufacturers with current DTM's situation is a bit tricky because BTCC is amateurish, nowhere near DTM level. It is legendary and much celebrated championship but if DTM went the same path it'd be like three steps backwards.

[helgi]

But today it can not make any steps at all, because it's done.

[hondafan37]

Maybe BMW should get in the SuperGT in 2021 and they should organize 2 SuperGT races in Germany on successive weekends.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by helgi

But today it can not make any steps at all, because it's done.

I'm not saying whether it can or not, my point is that success of TCR or BTCC couldn't be copied in DTM. And I still think some steps can be taken, whether they really help would be another issue.
But definitely I wouldn't see DTM with TCR cars, I think no team or driver would be interested in that. But who knows, maybe upgrading NGTC to something faster and more spectacular could work?

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Matt K

But who knows, maybe upgrading NGTC to something faster and more spectacular could work?

As I've said "NGTC +alpha". RWD 2-door sedans with production bodyshell, tuned production engine and custom aero. Could have been on par with GT3 at least. And cheaper - with clever management. But it would have been a "no way" from "Board Upstairs". Because it's not prestigious enough.

[crmalcolm]

NGTC EV?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by helgi

As I've said "NGTC +alpha". RWD 2-door sedans with production bodyshell, tuned production engine and custom aero. Could have been on par with GT3 at least. And cheaper - with clever management. But it would have been a "no way" from "Board Upstairs". Because it's not prestigious enough.

Yep, on paper looks good.

[helgi]

The most realistic way - they just dress a FE chassis into "silhouette" body a la "Legends", put some extra accumulators here and there - and - voila, eDTM. There're no other chances to see any proper racing with manufacturers' involvement, unfortunately.

[Matt K]

But this would make it completely irrelevant and artificial somehow.

[helgi]

This is the only possible decision after summing up all the requirements: manufacturers involvement and tight budgets. It's obvious that European companies have fallen in love with electricity and there's no chance to start (or restart) a new championship with ICE. Even hybrids are not so interesting from marketing point of view. They need "innovative" ideas. And fully electrical mode for almost-prototype machinery (for marketing departments) should look way more attractive. I'm sure they do not count the fact that it lacks engine sound and atmosphere. For some reason they are sure that FE has huge success, numerous fans and great publicity, and it's a obvious to use the same methods in other series. And economic crisis will force them to use more standard parts than in DTM, with no development at all. So, just the same bodyshells (equivalency in terms of aero) with different badges and painted headlights. This is the most real future for DTM ruled by sales managers. If it was some garagiests' series, or tuners', it could have been that NGTC+. But it's not. That's it.

[Matt K]

If DTM became fully-electric with identical bodyshells, just different badges, it couldn't stand a chance in comparison to FE, F1, WRC, WEC and so on and so forth. Could be on FE's support bill but nowhere near its current status. I mean, strength of such a series could be that cars are somewhat similar to their road counterparts - if it promotes new hyped technologies (like hybrids or fully electric) it's even better playground for manufacturers. If the DTM cars would be all the same with electric engines and manufacturer badges how would it be different from Formula E? The difference would be FE are single seaters, DTM would have roofs. But this would make DTM completely uninteresting for everybody - fans, teams, manufacturers and so on because what is the point in creating Formula E with roofs?

[crmalcolm]

Part of the appeal for NGTC is that the cars' shells start out as the normal road going shell off the production line.
A lot of fans have little interest in the actual technology under the bonnet. If it's got a BMW badge, it's got a BMW body.
If full EV was the solution, I feel that a BMW should still have what, from the outside, looks like a BMW. Under the skin, it could be standard parts, including frame, suspension and PU.
To give manufacturers more appeal, they could run their own PU or the standard unit. The PU could even be the same as currently used in FE?

[helgi]

Motor-generators are almost identical. There's nothing to invent there. Well, at least there were no proper analysis of different brands' solutions in FE. Looks like there's no such a thing as MGU comparison as we have in ICE world. No talks about straight-6 or flat-4 - nothing of that sort. No specific engine voice - just electric screwdrivers on the march. And the same will go to eDTM. They do not have to get different MGUs. They can just brand them as "Audi" or "DieselwagenNewHope" - no matter. If fans do not care what's inside, then there's nothing to talk about.

[Asa]

https://www.autosport.com/other/news...r-gt-this-year

This article suggests BMW may join Super GT, if DTM does not happen from 2021, then Super GT maybe where BMW will send some of its cars to.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Asa

https://www.autosport.com/other/news...r-gt-this-year

This article suggests BMW may join Super GT, if DTM does not happen from 2021, then Super GT maybe where BMW will send some of its cars to.

Engine and aero development in GT500 are traditionally, by Berger, called "small differences". So, Big German Three are scared of small things. How is it called? Microfobia?

[S griffin]

Not as advanced then and Berger would know a thing or two about that. Really BMW will do this season, but then what? They need new marques to join

[helgi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Not as advanced then and Berger would know a thing or two about that. Really BMW will do this season, but then what? They need new marques to join

There is a 3-year plan for GT500 engines to come with 1 step development per year. It's said openly, in media. DTM had 5-year frozen regulations.

It was said in media. If they still wanted to develop engines why to keep it in secret? Jet-ignition is the same theme. I am sure that Berger knew only some phrases to put into media acting as a sinking boat effective manager.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Not as advanced then and Berger would know a thing or two about that. Really BMW will do this season, but then what? They need new marques to join

If BMW need new marques to join, then the future is bleak if the series is reliant on BMW.

Better to make a change, and allow BMW to leave or stay, without it affecting the viability of the series for the future.

Any series is better if the manufacturers are asking to get involved, as opposed to dictating how things should be. F1 is regularly criticised for allowing teams to have too much say over what happens, so why would DTM opt for the same problems?