Any body know anything about a second bathurst event for 2005

[Falcadore]

Matthew: do non-compettitive events count?

[abr944]

i would imagine it has to do with total road closures.....i think partial closures and the like are on a pretty basic level i guess

[Falcadore]

Well would the filiming of the Ford GT add have counted then, as it would have recquired road closures to film.

Where do you draw the line? I think it's competitive events, but it could be just events that close the whole circuit too.

[louonline]

As far as I know there is no limit to the number of partial closures but full closure is limited to two per year.
BCC has applied to have the option of five full closure events per year. At this stage it looks like they will get it given the fact that both governments invested money in the upgrade.
All they need now is five events of some sort to fill the slots!

[abr944]

i allways thought that it was 2 times a year...i was sure that i had read that fact somewhere......yes...after all the money spent on the upgrade.....the bathurst city council really would want to find someone to use the track.....

[singer]

Originally Posted by jasonhill9884

The formula fords at bathurst were always an exciting race, it would be a shame.

i am not on drugs, i am simply sick of the V8's.

This country is so v8 this, and v8 that... i think the v8s is a brilliant series, but people need to realise that there is other series out there which could be just as exciting to watch given the right amount of development.

Personally, i would love to watch sports cars or production cars race in a 1000km race at Bathurst on Australia Day.. Does a sports car or production car 1000 appeal to anyone else ??

I've been advocating this type of use not only for Bathurst (but especially Bathurst) around the country as the V8 Supercars (& the parit issue) have moved to far towards the NASCAR formula.

I've been ridiculed on several forums for this suggestion but I for one, would like to see a race where driver skill as well as the car are both part of the formula for winning, as well as going back to having classes for engine capacity.

Thats my opinion

[Cambo]

Wasn’t there talk of a Historic meeting at Bathurst a few years ago? Don’t know how much all the politics about open wheelers and what cars can and can’t race there, cost and what not attributed to the demise of that plan. It would be a spectacle to see though (esp that Lola T-70 down conrod). And historics I think are 2nd in attendance on circuit racing to the main V8 circus so that could be a good possible show for a 2nd date.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by singer

I've been advocating this type of use not only for Bathurst (but especially Bathurst) around the country as the V8 Supercars (& the parit issue) have moved to far towards the NASCAR formula.

I've been ridiculed on several forums for this suggestion but I for one, would like to see a race where driver skill as well as the car are both part of the formula for winning, as well as going back to having classes for engine capacity.

Thats my opinion

I don't think your integrity or your idea is being ridiculed, but rather the commercial unreality of the product. In the last decade it has been proven that any rival to V8Supercar (a decision V8Supercar would make, not you) will fail even if it has good cars and good racing.

If a rugby league series full of quality games appeared without any star footballers would you go to see it? (and don't say you wouldn't go to a RL game - you know what I mean)

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Cambo

Wasn’t there talk of a Historic meeting at Bathurst a few years ago? Don’t know how much all the politics about open wheelers and what cars can and can’t race there, cost and what not attributed to the demise of that plan. It would be a spectacle to see though (esp that Lola T-70 down conrod). And historics I think are 2nd in attendance on circuit racing to the main V8 circus so that could be a good possible show for a 2nd date.

Keep talking that one up Cambo....what a great meeting that would be....lobby the HSRCA to have a go.....bring it on!

[V8 Supercars]

Lol @ 275 Gtb-4

[Raglanparade]

I still think an "Australian Production Car Championship" would be a very good idea.

You just make sure that the calender is run on alternate weeks to the V8 Series, and put a 1000km Season Finale race at Bathurst in November.

Of course, get a rival television network (Preferably Channel 7) behind the series. (this stops Channel 10 and Aussie Bernie teaming up to limit populairty of the new series).

You have Class A = (Cars between 2000cc and 4000cc - Naturally Aspirated)

Eligible Cars

Holden Commodore VZ - (6 Cylinder - 3565cc)
Ford Falcon BA - (6 Cylinder - 3984cc)
Hyundai Sonata - (6 Cylinder - 2657cc)
Kia Optima - (6 Cylinder - 2656cc)
Toyota Avalon/Camry - (6 Cylinder 2995cc)
Mitsubishi Magna - (6 Cylinder - 3467cc)
Volkswagen Golf - (6 Cylinder - 3189cc)
Nissan Maxima - (6 Cylinder - 3498cc)


Class B - (Cars under 2000cc)

Eligible Cars

Toyota Corolla (4 Cylinder - 1794cc)
Ford Focus - (4 Cylinder - FWD - 1988cc)
Holden Astra - (4 Cylinder - 1796cc)
Citroen Xsara - (4 Cylinder - 1998cc)
Mitsubish Lancer (4 Cylinder - FWD - 1999cc)
Volkswagen Beetle - (4 Cylinder - 1984cc)
Honda Civic - (4 Cylinder - 1668cc)
Hyundai Elantra - (4 Cylinder - 1975cc)
Kia Cerato - (4 Cylinder - 1975cc)
Mazda 3 - (4 Cylinder - 1999cc)
Nissan Pulsar - (4 Cylinder - 1769cc)
Peugoet 206/307 - (4 Cylinder - 1997cc)
Renault Megane - (4 Cylinder - 1998cc)

All cars are 2WD. 4WD cars are banned.

[Falcadore]

As opposed to the Australian Production Car Championship which already exists?

[Raglanparade]

Well if it exists.... i dont know about..

it needs exposure...

If i didnt know about it... how many aussies do ???

i think ive just answered your question

[Falcadore]

Not neccessarily - you have several times 'invented' categories or championship concepts that already exist, espousing 'answers' that have already been tried and didn't work. I'm sorry of pointing this out offends you.

[singer]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Not neccessarily - you have several times 'invented' categories or championship concepts that already exist, espousing 'answers' that have already been tried and didn't work. I'm sorry of pointing this out offends you.

I think you'll find what killed off procar was ten had the TV rights which conflicted with the V8Supercar rights which they also held. The Cockroache squeezed ten so that they'd limit the amount exposure which procars were given

I think you'll find what killed off procar was ten had the TV rights which conflicted with the V8Supercar rights which they also held. The Cockroache squeezed ten so that they'd limit the amount exposure which procars were given

Ha ha ha . . . very funny. Fell on the floor I laughed so much. Almost as funny as jasonhill9884's suggestion for the APCC. He has obviously been off the planet for a while. What he also fails to grasp is that someone has to pay. In the real world TV is not about to come running to a category begging it to be televised. The categories have to pay for TV and it isn't cheap.

[mixxer]

Singer, Procar died simply because its supporters didn't go to the meetings for various reasons known only to themselves

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mixxer

Singer, Procar died simply because its supporters didn't go to the meetings for various reasons known only to themselves

I would have to disagree with that philosophy Mixxer.

During Procar's years as a stand alone promoter, it attendances were solid. Not huge or as a big as Supercar, but larger than the Minolta series.

I think what knocked Procar over, was the fall of its drawcard category, the struggle to find a broadcasting partner (who they didnt have to pay HUGE sums of $$$) and continuous struggle to find Corporate support. As we have seen from the Procar fallout, their were plenty of supporters.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by singer

I think you'll find what killed off procar was ten had the TV rights which conflicted with the V8Supercar rights which they also held. The Cockroache squeezed ten so that they'd limit the amount exposure which procars were given

Singer: You've incorrectly grasped the import of what I'm suggesting here. The failure of PROCAR had little to do with the merits of GT-Performance or Production Car racing.

GT-Performance was and is quite healthy, with a wide variety of well heeled and well peddled equipment from across the global motorsporting spectrum and the Australian motorsport community. As a category it has a lot going for it. The creation of an "Import Supercup" category cuts directly across GT-Per's ground, and completely fails to recognise why the "Rice Boy" set is attracted to these types of cars.

Similarly Jason's APCC concept has been done more than once before. Two three years ago the APCC was in a dreadful state with some sub-categories only having two or three cars in it. At the height of the APCC in its GT-Production guise, we had Camrys, Magnas, Falcons and Commodores all fighting each other with usually the better driven and easier on the consumables in the Camrys and Magnas winning races. Under pressure from Holden and Ford the Commodores and Falcons were seperated from their Japanese rivals and the top end of the class lost momentum.

But you see that pressure wil ALWAYS be there.

In the early 90's the class structure looked similar to Jason's suggestion and we had great fights between the Commodore and Falcons. While one team flirted with running R31 Skylines, in the end nobody ran anything else. Its much easier to acquire sponsors for Commodores and Falcons and a large part of the thinking behind making them quicker in production race spec has already been done.

If you pick another car you are just asking for a littany of development headaches that none of your rivals will have.

What Jason has done here is pick up an issue of Wheels magazine gone strraight to the back and write up a list of cars which sound good on paper without giving any thought to how such a concept could be executed.

KIA's and Hyundais in this division are just pure fantasy - no power and no support from the racing industry. Nissan would not thank you for racing their Maximas. They were badly burnt by 1992 and its likely they will never race in this country again. Golfs are too small for the class division and are sufficiently potent devices to be running in GT-Performance. Golfs in that group is just ridiculous as those hot hatch rockets would run rings around the rest of the class. Compare Paul Stokell's times in his GTP Golf to the V8 Commodores like Scott Loadsman.

Remember its not just cars of similar performance or even engine configuaration, but demographic has to be considered.

Similarly the small class version has been done before as well. In the early 90's there were an influx of small bore proddies into the APCC. While some flitred with Hondas and Mitsubishis, it was very quickly aparent that the powerful Corollas and the nimble Swifts were the only two cars to have. When the capacity limited was lifted it allowed first Pintaras, then 626s into the class until they were swamped by the Pulsar SSS.

In such situations while the regs SEEM liberal one or two cars quickly rise to the surface and all good intentions are lost as teams relise they have to get rid of the car they've invested tens of thousands in because its uncompetitive. It happened with the Supra in 1989. The Pulsar in 1993.

If you can't get the class regulations right, then no amount of favourable TV time can save you.

And all of this still fails to address the lack of star drivers. When Tony Cochrane set we've got the stars and the cars, he was absolutely right. Public perception is a powerful thing, and a group of nobodies driving Corollas, Pulsars and Astras (plain forget the rest of that list) won't even dent the surface of public perception, no matter how good the racing is.

[Growling Ferret]

Falcadore wrote: Compare Paul Stokell's times in his GTP Golf to the V8 Commodores like Scott Loadsman

That's comparing apples with oranges - a 4wd factory supported lightweight (200kg removed) Golf wtih some funky VW special engine mapping should not be compared to a privateer Commodore...

But alas, the rest of the argument stacks up - I spectated at SuperTourer meetings at Amaroo, Oran Park, Eastern Creek, Winton, Phillip Island, and followed Procar at Bathurst, OP, Wakefield, Eastern Creek. And unfortunately, there were always 10 times more spectators at V8 SuperCar meetings. The racing was rarely better, the support races few and far between, but the V8's ruled the roost, and had much bigger corporate $ financial the show than Procar...

Back to the main argument - an alternate 24 hour race. And I can't see it happening - there are too many classes in Aus, not enough $, and too many vested interests to make it happen...

[mixxer]

DRT either way the inability to put bums on the seat at the track gives you the reason for why they had the troubles you described.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

the "Rice Boy" set is attracted to these types of cars.




And all of this still fails to address the lack of star drivers....
.... perception, no matter how good the racing is.

Falcadore, pls explain the 'Rice Boy' set.

The alternative viable formula is one thing, drivers known to the general public are another thing - I'd suggest more than the top dozen V8 Supercar drivers are on either the Ford or Holden payroll.

[mixxer]

my understanding only
its the cap backward, fluoro lights under the sills and DOOF DOOF emanating from the obligatory open window type person

edit cant spell DOOF

[pete55]

The only way to take on V8 Supercars would be to have a regional championship like Indian-Pacific which includes countries such as Middle East, Africa, Australia, NZ, Asia and Japan. JTCC rules perhaps relaxed to allow the Holden/Falcon cars to compete would perhaps be the best solution. Asian televison could cover the event thereby allowing it to be produced a lot cheaper than Australia would and sold to local stations at a competitive price. While V8 Supercars are venturing overseas the alternative series could sneak in, especially if they were smart and happened to be here when the V8 Supercars weren't.

[paydirt]

...Yeah, but who is going to fund the series while it's still in it's infancy,in the hope that maybe,just maybe,they 'might' get some financial return?

Don't ask RossP. His fingers have been burnt to the knuckle!