[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Akrapovic]

I don't think the straights are long enough for the low down force kit to be an advantage. You'd come out of the high down force corners much slower and start at a lower speed.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think the straights are long enough for the low down force kit to be an advantage. You'd come out of the high down force corners much slower and start at a lower speed.

That wasn't the case in 2015 I was hoping for a tug of war matchup like that this year. But it seems the Toyota and Porsche are equal on top speed as well. At least through the speed traps. That's why I asked if anyone saw any onboards to know the real top speed difference.

[ModelT]

Originally Posted by Artur

as I sain on the race thread, which is exactly why they slowed down the LMP1s. The safety claim is just an excuse.

Same thing happened back in the latter days of Group C, the cars were becoming as quick as F1, and taking some sponsors away (better bang for their buck V F1)

So the FIA killed Group C, they did not want anything as competition. Same people still around, and F1 in the doldrums, wait too see it happen again.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

Looking at the timing from alakamelsystems, the Toyota is setting the same speed through the speed traps as the Porsche. Even though Porsche has the low downforce package, it doesn't look like they have any advantage. I didn't see it live, though. So did anyone see any onboards?

silverstone speed trap is placed at least 200m before the breaking point, so is not very indicative. Remember in 2015 that via hud telemetry, porsche was able to hit over 310km/h smoothly lap by lap, but the best top speed recorded was lower, for the reason I just explained.
Anyway you're right, toyota HD and porsche LD have the same recorded top speed. This let me think:

A: toyota has a higher combined power than porsche

B: toyota has a so amazing acceleration, that let the car hit top speed sooner than expected

C: using a LD package, porsche struggle to have a decent exit speed before the hangar straight


kolles clm marked about 290km/h as best top speed, and suspecting that clm has a "low downforce - high drag" package, the nismo engine should push an insane power to let the car hit that speed


BTW, any news about 2017 gear boxes? do toyota stick with 6s and porsche with 7s?
interesting should be the kolles clm gearbox, if memory helps, nismo gt-r lmp1 had a 5 speed gearbox

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

silverstone speed trap is placed at least 200m before the breaking point, so is not very indicative. Remember in 2015 that via hud telemetry, porsche was able to hit over 310km/h smoothly lap by lap, but the best top speed recorded was lower, for the reason I just explained.
Anyway you're right, toyota HD and porsche LD have the same recorded top speed. This let me think:

A: toyota has a higher combined power than porsche

B: toyota has a so amazing acceleration, that let the car hit top speed sooner than expected

C: using a LD package, porsche struggle to have a decent exit speed before the hangar straight


kolles clm marked about 290km/h as best top speed, and suspecting that clm has a "low downforce - high drag" package, the nismo engine should push an insane power to let the car hit that speed


BTW, any news about 2017 gear boxes? do toyota stick with 6s and porsche with 7s?
interesting should be the kolles clm gearbox, if memory helps, nismo gt-r lmp1 had a 5 speed gearbox

The p1's coast way before they need to brake anyway. We'll just have to see from the feed tomorrow what their real top speeds look like. I don't know about the CLM gearbox and the only thing I've read on the Toyota is the transmission is new.

[maximus]

Watching trackside the Toyota's have incredible acceleration out of the corners, they seem faster than the Porsches

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

That Kobayashi lap. Wow. I mean... wow.

Quick stat: it was within 107% of last year's F1 pole position lap, and 1.1 seconds off the fastest lap set during the F1 race last year.

That is super quick, and it is no wonder that P1 factory drives are so coveted.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by ModelT

Same thing happened back in the latter days of Group C, the cars were becoming as quick as F1, and taking some sponsors away (better bang for their buck V F1)

So the FIA killed Group C, they did not want anything as competition. Same people still around, and F1 in the doldrums, wait too see it happen again.

Well the 2020 regulations could make it or break it

[Hiro]

Kobayashi said here that #7 had the qualifying special setting. They can run through some corners without any lifting while #8 couldnt. Their corner speed is very high but they harvest less energy than #8 so their top speed is below #8. He admitted that #7 will probably be slower than #8 in race.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by TF110

Looking at the timing from alakamelsystems, the Toyota is setting the same speed through the speed traps as the Porsche. Even though Porsche has the low downforce package, it doesn't look like they have any advantage. I didn't see it live, though. So did anyone see any onboards?

276 km/h for the toyotas apparently, when no slipstream is involved. didn't see any telemetry on the porsche onboards yet.

[TF110]

Hope the issues Toyota are having are just phantoms and aren't lasting problems. They need flawless runs to win.

[chernaudi]

I'm probably going to nickname the current TS050 Tyto. Need a reference, just look at my avatar and the new TS050 has beady headlights and the nose looks more like a beak than last year's car because of the catwalk shrouds.

[roderick]

Just out of interest, does anyone thinks toyota is not as good as passing slower GT cars compared with Porsche?

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by roderick

Just out of interest, does anyone thinks toyota is not as good as passing slower GT cars compared with Porsche?

There might have been a difference in energy deployment between the cars, which could also explain why Toyota could match Porsche for top speed on a high downforce setup, but I suspect it had more to do with the Toyotas encountering traffic first.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by roderick

Just out of interest, does anyone thinks toyota is not as good as passing slower GT cars compared with Porsche?

While it could at least partly the car, I just have the impression that the Toyota drivers (Buemi excepted) just aren't quite as ruthless as the Porsche or Audi drivers are/were.

[kvenom]

I think Toyota should be mighty worried post-Le Mans.

[TF110]

With one car out, I thought they may have been a bit cautious towards the end, but Buemi knew he had the win in hand with the fresher tires. Was cool to see him go for it like that. With only 4 sets and 2 spares, tire wear is going to be the biggest factory imo.

Development doesn't stop just because a package is homologated. Engine performance can improve and so can setup. I don't think one race is enough to draw any conclusions there. But the pit stops have to get faster!

[GasperG]

There is interview with Buemi in the android app, he said that in last minutes he was really pushing, what is interesting is that he said he was using more charge than he was regenerating, or did I get that wrong?

This indicates that they still have problems with regenerating full MJ allocation for tracks other than LeMans, probably because they don't have MGU-H.

It also answers why qualifying laps are so much better than race pace.

This also begs the question what is the capacity of the battery, it seems like they have quite a big capacity to play around like that. It's a little surprising since all batteries follow Ragone plot - either you have high power or high capacity, you can't have both.



These plots suggest that with very high power li-ion you will only get around 2 kWh or less @360kW power. These cars inputs/outputs that capacity every 3 minutes or so, there is very little spare capacity to play with, but maybe enough to push out more charge than it's getting in for something like 15 minutes?

Of course Porsche can do similar, but I doubt they gain as much as Toytoa by doing so.

Edit: Toyota also showed several times that they can limp to pit stop on battery power alone, #7 didn't exactly "roll with low resistance" and they managed to drive couple of km on battery alone.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by GasperG

There is interview with Buemi in the android app, he said that in last minutes he was really pushing, what is interesting is that he said he was using more charge than he was regenerating, or did I get that wrong?

This indicates that they still have problems with regenerating full MJ allocation for tracks other than LeMans, probably because they don't have MGU-H.

It also answers why qualifying laps are so much better than race pace.

This also begs the question what is the capacity of the battery, it seems like they have quite a big capacity to play around like that. It's a little surprising since all batteries follow Ragone plot - either you have high power or high capacity, you can't have both.



These plots suggest that with very high power li-ion you will only get around 2 kWh or less @360kW power. These cars inputs/outputs that capacity every 3 minutes or so, there is very little spare capacity to play with, but maybe enough to push out more charge than it's getting in for something like 15 minutes?

Of course Porsche can do similar, but I doubt they gain as much as Toytoa by doing so.

There is no point of comparing qualify and the race. The settings for the car is completely different. In case you dont know, Lap before and after the fastest time will always be slow. this is due to qualify setting for the battery and 3 lap AVE fuel regulation.

Oh and dont forget, Toyota is capable of running a lap with just EV mode(like they did last year). That indicates they have alot of capacity. Hence, for only 1 stint, they dont have to recover much energy yet you can keep using the battery without emptying it out.

PS: MGU-H is great way to go...but after all, it's sacrificing the engine efficiency in all rev range and during acceleration.

[GasperG]

I agree, but I still expect smaller margin in qualifying lap and race pace at LeMans, where they recuperate MJ allocation a lot easier. If you interpolate Silverstone diference then you would get 6s diference at LeMans, that is just crazy.

The capacity of the battery is surprising, at least for me. It's incredible when you consider weight and size are such an important factor.

[godlameroso]

Porsche doesn't have a MGU-H, their turbo only works in generator mode.

Also Silverstone is not a track where you can get much braking regen. There's only 3 real heavy braking zones, plus the length of the circuit means they can only harvest ~3.5MJ per lap.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by kvenom

I think Toyota should be mighty worried post-Le Mans.

Why's that as opposed to pre (or during)? (Curiosity is getting this cat...)

[Japanese Samurai]

Toyota can improve tire changing time by cheating Porsche style.
Porsche: 15.85 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65Pe_lLiNI
Toyota: 19.05 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg2t-Q0l8kk

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Why's that as opposed to pre (or during)? (Curiosity is getting this cat...)

Their High df kit is already homologated while Porsche can still tweak theirs before its initial use after LM. And Toyota will debut their Low df kit at Spa so there's little extra time to tweak and develop it. It's more of a WEC championship than finally winning LM concern. But 3 cars might mean one makes it 4 min longer than last year's car and we, including Porsche fans, don't have that heartbreak of last year. Even if you hate Toyota that's a tough failure to celebrate.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Toyota can improve tire changing time by cheating Porsche style.
Porsche: 15.85 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65Pe_lLiNI
Toyota: 19.05 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg2t-Q0l8kk

It looked more like the front tire guy blocked the air gun a tick and that threw off the routine, otherwise they and Porsche were just about identical movements and use of the only 1 gun across the line at a time.