How to fix F1?

[Casper]

A driver straight out of karts would be very competitive unlike now. When a driver gets into a car with good aero and he has never driven an aero car before he has to drive through the boundary of where he loses mechanical grip and aero saves him and allows the car to go faster than he has experience of.

The reality is ditching aero won't happen and I doubt next year is going make much difference because F1's track record on aero change is abysmal at a best.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wingless cars react so much quicker and are much more fun to drive.

I think the some of the resistance is because the driver would become too important in a no aero formula.

How does a car that corners at 1.5G react quicker than a car that corners at 5G?

By definition, since the acceleration rate of the latter is higher, doesn't the latter react quicker?

The current cars very often lose lateral traction at a rate that is impossible to catch (as any compilation of modern day F1 onboards shows) -- wouldn't a car with less grip be easier to drive since everything happens so much more slowly?

[Pandamasque]

Wingless cars "react so much quicker" probably should have been "break away so much sooner" which indeed makes them more fun to drive and to watch.
Moments when F1 cars go sideways are few and far between, yet each time that happens we get slomo videos and everyone's in awe.

But a technically wingless F1 car would not be completely devoid of downforce. Engineers would find plenty of other ways to produce it, especially under 2022 regulations.

I'd say reducing downforce by about 50% while maintaining similar engine power would do the trick.

Originally Posted by Casper

A driver straight out of karts would be very competitive unlike now. When a driver gets into a car with good aero and he has never driven an aero car before he has to drive through the boundary of where he loses mechanical grip and aero saves him and allows the car to go faster than he has experience of.

I don't think that's a thing that happens. Although your general point about drivers having to recalibrate their instincts to trust the higher grip level is still correct.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Wingless cars "react so much quicker" probably should have been "break away so much sooner" which indeed makes them more fun to drive and to watch.

But wingless cars break away slower not sooner? It's the current cars that go from fine to backwards in the wall in an instant!

I'm not convinced that a car that can't be pushed as hard because it has no grip is more fun. It's certainly easier to control as everything happens in slow motion though: Morris Minor as an extreme example -- you could read the paper, have a cup of tea and then still catch the slide in time!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But wingless cars break away slower not sooner? It's the current cars that go from fine to backwards in the wall in an instant!

As I understand it - non-aero cars will break away sooner, but in a more progressive manner. An aero car will 'hold' for longer, but when it goes the break will be more sudden and drastic?

[P38 in workshop]

How much further do wingless cars travel when they have an off?It could make several current tracks unsuitable for future use.


I still favour opening up the entry list and allowing 26 cars to start the race.Pre-qualifying if necessary.It could create jobs for those who have already been released to allow the existing teams to bring their expenditure below the cost cap and it would allow more of the talented drivers who can't dislodge the present pay drivers to get noticed.I expect Liberty and those managing the current teams would hate the idea,but if you can't compete.........

[midgetman]

The other thing is you can't put the aero genie back in the bottle. The whole of the rest of motor sport has aero, which will mean the GP route - GP2 & GP3 will have to go the same way - will be slower than possibly F3 and certainly sports cars. Those of us with long memories will recall what happened last time sports cars threatened F1 speed dominance.

If the designers get the downforce back with clever underbody designs, what's been gained apart from spending a shed load of money for no speed reduction?

Lovely idea, can't be done in the modern world.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[S griffin]

With the 2022 regulations coming up, I wonder if there is any plans to change the F2 cars to bring them in line with the F1 cars, only not as fast

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

With the 2022 regulations coming up, I wonder if there is any plans to change the F2 cars to bring them in line with the F1 cars, only not as fast

Not at present. In November 2020, the following was released by the FIA:

'Moreover, the promoters have decided that the same car will be used for the next three-year cycle of F2 which will start in 2021. The 2019 Formula 3 car’s specs will be unchanged for 2021 and is likely to remain the same for the following seasons, with the next three-year cycle starting in 2022.'

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But wingless cars break away slower not sooner? It's the current cars that go from fine to backwards in the wall in an instant!

I'm not convinced that a car that can't be pushed as hard because it has no grip is more fun. It's certainly easier to control as everything happens in slow motion though: Morris Minor as an extreme example -- you could read the paper, have a cup of tea and then still catch the slide in time!

By "sooner" I meant it loses grip at lower loads, where a downforce car wouldn't. The less consequence of going slightly over the limit, the more drivers will push, go over the limit and save it spectacularly (or not). Of course, Morris Minor, which probably has positive lift and next to no power, being an extreme example looks like slow motion. I used to do a lot of simracing. First F1 then endurance and historics. The historic Trans Am series ('67-'72 cars) was among the most fun things I've done. It was very sideways and "slow motion"

But who's asking for an extreme solution? Half of F1 downforce is still more downforce than most other race cars. We're talking dropping grip levels approximately to that of a mildly wet race. Except, when you do it through aero rather than tire grip it happens at higher speeds more. This means corners like Eau Rouge become a challenge again, but the overall lap pace is still worthy of Formula 1. I probably said this before, but a Latifi is every bit as good as a Hamilton through Eau Rouge when it's flat out. I'd like to actually see the difference between the two. Another benefit is longer braking distances, which means more opportunity for overtaking. And last but not least, the less DF contributes to your grip, the less grip you lose while losing DF in the wake of another car, which again means more overtaking.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I'd like to actually see the difference between the two.

indeed!

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Another benefit is longer braking distances, which means more opportunity for overtaking. And last but not least, the less DF contributes to your grip, the less grip you lose while losing DF in the wake of another car, which again means more overtaking.

given the nature of many of the Tilke designed tracks (long straights followed by a sharp corner) which necessitates longer braking zones to make the corner have not led to more overtaking...with the current regs that hasent helped unless it is through DRS.

as a layman here, to me that suggests less DF allows one to go faster in a straight line so thus fortune favours the bold and the late brakers and so speaks to your point.

but what happens when a car enters the corner? again im a bit out of my element here but without that extra DF in a corner will an F1 car (one without wings) be able to hold the tight corner without massively compromising the following section of track?

of course more mechanical grip can offset that but faster cornering speeds then becomes a problem to consider.

this part of the sport is beyond me so i cant say where the optimal compromise is between aero and mechanical grip but i would have to think a no wing solution is way past acceptable.

back in the day where tracks were longer and with more flowing corners sure it worked, but with the current selection of tracks? i lot of other things would have to change first no?

apologies if im off point here and can see you are not talking about extreme solutions yourself.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

But who's asking for an extreme solution? Half of F1 downforce is still more downforce than most other race cars. We're talking dropping grip levels approximately to that of a mildly wet race.

That's basically making F1 into F2 cars, isn't it? They are probably around half of F1 downforce and are around 10 seconds per lap slower.

F2 cars don't look more "on the edge" than F1, they just look a bit lazy and a bit slow. By all means they are still a very, very fast car (much faster than any road going supercar), but nowhere close to sheer speed of an F1 car.

Originally Posted by S griffin

With the 2022 regulations coming up, I wonder if there is any plans to change the F2 cars to bring them in line with the F1 cars, only not as fast

The F2 cars are already designed with a very big diffuser / Venturi tunnels and a preference for underbody aero, without the sensitivity issues of a raked flat floor. You could say the new F1 cars are already based on the F2 cars.

F2 car:


2022 F1 car:


A comparison of hot laps, F1 vs F2, taking half the downforce from F1 would essentially make them into F2 cars with a bit more power:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No7fBWHEcpY

Or a 1000hp era CART Indycar, you can see that the way it corners is quite sluggish due to the low downforce levels. There is a lot of waiting, waiting, waiting, where a modern F1 car would be attacking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO-DfNcGz9k

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but what happens when a car enters the corner? again im a bit out of my element here but without that extra DF in a corner will an F1 car (one without wings) be able to hold the tight corner without massively compromising the following section of track?

As you can see from the CART onboard, a low downforce car just involves the driver waiting for ages for the car to complete the darn corner! It just won't go any faster through a long corner as it doesn't have any more grip to give. Portland is a vaguely similar track to the Monza F1 qualifying we just watched I suppose, and you can see how much less Zanardi can attack the corners in the CART than the modern or even 2000-2004 era F1 cars.

Here's a direct comparison:

F1 at Montreal 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAhOI73nkUA
CART at Montreal 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H6QKqLEAvs -- even in the first corner alone, it's so slow compared to the F1 car!

The low downforce CART is just a bit sluggish and lazy compared to the F1 , even though they both have upwards of 900hp. It doesn't help that the CART was much heavier in 2002, however nowadays an F1 car is much heavier than then (+150kg) and weighs about the same as an Indycar.

F1 cars will weigh 790kg in 2022 for that matter IIRC, +38kg over 2021.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

By "sooner" I meant it loses grip at lower loads, where a downforce car wouldn't. The less consequence of going slightly over the limit, the more drivers will push, go over the limit and save it spectacularly (or not).

I think mostly not, because it's not faster, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

...The historic Trans Am series ('67-'72 cars) was among the most fun things I've done. It was very sideways and "slow motion"

Trans Am uses crossply tyres don't they? That's why they are sideways more, because crossply tyres operate best and generate peak grip at much greater slip angles than radials, and have a wider working range of slip angles without a sudden dropoff (in grip).

For as long as F1 still uses radials (since ~1980), then small slip angles will be faster IMO. As grip drops off rather rapidly at big slip angles with radials. The friction coefficient vs slip angle comes up to a peak and then drops away drastically at bigger slip angles.

That's why the 1970's F1 cars did four wheel drifts through the bends. Not because they had less downforce, but because they were on crossply tyres that worked well at big slip angles.

[Pandamasque]

Trans Am was a very extreme example of how that kind of "slow motion" can be a ton of fun to drive and watch. Yes, it was on cross plies. I also remember the first time I saw historic racing on TV: Cobras vs Lighweight E-types at Silverstone. They had to feather the throttle even through Woodcote!
Which neatly brings me to your F1 vs. F2 argument. The "a bit more power" part is a key factor in my book. F2 and especially F3 cars are underpowered for the amount of DF they produce. That's precisely why they look sluggish, not because they lack DF.
Again, I don't expect to see four wheel drifts through long corners. But even 20-25 years ago F1 cars moved around more.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I think mostly not, because it's not faster, unfortunately.

That's like saying, going all 4 wheels over the line will get your quali lap deleted, so nobody will ever do it, right? Yes, going over the limit is slower. But staying closer to the limit more often means going over the limit more often. If the car is more forgiving over the limit, drivers will push closer to it. Basic risk vs. reward.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

given the nature of many of the Tilke designed tracks (long straights followed by a sharp corner) which necessitates longer braking zones to make the corner have not led to more overtaking...with the current regs that hasent helped unless it is through DRS.

That's usually due to the following car losing way too much grip in the aero wake though the corner preceding the straight. Last turn in Hungaroring is a perfect example. T1 should by all means be a great overtaking spot. But two cars entering the last corner nose-to-tail end up spreading apart so much that often even DRS isn't enough to bring them back together. And that's a relatively old school circuit.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but what happens when a car enters the corner? again im a bit out of my element here but without that extra DF in a corner will an F1 car (one without wings) be able to hold the tight corner without massively compromising the following section of track?

Basically, the faster the corner, the more difference having less DF will make. The driver will have to be earlier on the brakes, slower on the apex and later on the gas (and more gradual). In the slowest corners it's the braking zone that will be mostly affected, but the minimum speed will be almost the same. Say, through the Monaco hairpin it will barely make any difference. Whereas turns like Eau Rouge and Suzuka's 130R will require modulating the throttle and maybe even some corrective action on the steering. Curva Grande at Monza will probably be flat out anyway, unless all DF is removed. But T3 at Barcelona will become very tricky.

[V8 Fireworks]

Very interesting post Pandamasque, you sure know your stuff!

[Teretonga]

Its not difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.
certainly not too difficult.
Nothing is impossible and where there is the will to do it then it can be done.
Where there is no will to do then there is your problem, and if it fails then that will be why it fails.
Id have no problem writing a prescription that would reduce F1 aero, create cars that would be spectacular to drive, to watch, to race (even in the wet) without the problems we currently have, and be cheaper to develop, run and race over a season.
The differences between them and sports prototypes wouldn't be any more significant then the present cars even if sports LMP regulations remained s they are.
None of these issues are significant.
Max Verstappen recently made the comment that 'drive-ability' and 'race-ability' are the most important considerations and even if the cars were 5 seconds slower it wouldn't matter if the cars were more 'raceable', meaning the racing was better, more fun for the drivers.
Nothing is too hard with a bit of imagination.

[Casper]

It is good to see this discussion has some legs and others see the problem as well as me. generally when aero is mentioned it only gets lip service with no reasoning put forward.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Its not difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.

If memory serves me right, the whole raceability talk in F1 began almost 2 decades ago. Specifically for this matter F1 created something called the Overtaking Working Group in 2007! And yet it took them until now come up with a ground up solution, instead of a series of small band-aid fixes that only made cars uglier and created new loopholes.

I'd say, with F1's politics and competing interests the genie can be extremely stubborn! If the projected numbers for 2022 cars sited by Symmonds come to fruition, it should be a roaring success in comparison to all previous efforts.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

If memory serves me right, the whole raceability talk in F1 began almost 2 decades ago. Specifically for this matter F1 created something called the Overtaking Working Group in 2007! And yet it took them until now come up with a ground up solution, instead of a series of small band-aid fixes that only made cars uglier and created new loopholes.

I'd say, with F1's politics and competing interests the genie can be extremely stubborn! If the projected numbers for 2022 cars sited by Symonds come to fruition, it should be a roaring success in comparison to all previous efforts.

Yes. We know that F1 genies are extremely tough, robust, and persistent, and will do all they can to maintain the status quo. But back into the bottle they must go if F1racing is really going to be a serious WDC, or the lack of 'race-ability' will implode the championship from any meaningful future.

2022 will be interesting, hopefully for the whole season. If so then maybe theyve turned a corner, but if not it could be a turn in the other direction.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's basically making F1 into F2 cars, isn't it? They are probably around half of F1 downforce and are around 10 seconds per lap slower.

The idea would be to reset the arms race that F1 is.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The low downforce CART is just a bit sluggish and lazy compared to the F1 , even though they both have upwards of 900hp. It doesn't help that the CART was much heavier in 2002, however nowadays an F1 car is much heavier than then (+150kg) and weighs about the same as an Indycar.

F1 cars will weigh 790kg in 2022 for that matter IIRC, +38kg over 2021.

Idk how you came to this opinion?

[S griffin]

If anything, the comparison between the Champ Cars and F1 at Montreal shows what a ridiculous amount of performance F1 cars had at that time. Braking distances too short, too much acceleration due to TC. That period wasn’t exactly a golden era.

[P38 in workshop]

I just saw an interesting rumour that Liberty are allegedly negotiating with a Saudi group with a view to unloading F1.It might be for the best.At least they are now permitting women to drive in Saudi Arabia.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I just saw an interesting rumour that Liberty are allegedly negotiating with a Saudi group with a view to unloading F1.It might be for the best.At least they are now permitting women to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Does unloading mean selling?

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Does unloading mean selling?

In this case,yes it does.

https://www.pitpass.com/70768/Saudis-eyeing-bid-for-F1

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

In this case,yes it does.

https://www.pitpass.com/70768/Saudis-eyeing-bid-for-F1

Liberty hasn't "lost interest", it is both disillusioned by F1, realising that it isn't the sport it thought it was, and struggling to make it financially viable.

I wish the author could expand on this.