Brabham BT21

[allenbrown]

Just looking again at Spencer Elton's many Brabhams and MN says that the one he used at Weston 30 Sep 1972 was "the ex-Inglis BT21B". That must mean the ex-Geoff Inglis BT14/21 that Inglis had used in the first five rounds of that season's Sprint Championship before buying his March 702. MN says the Brabham had a 1.6 twin-cam in it rather than the supercharged 1.5-litre engine that Inglis used.

Then at Little Rissington two weeks later, Spencer was said to be having trouble with his BT30 and running an ex-Alan Rollinson BT21. I thought maybe BT21-49 but I see Chris has it (here) as BT21B-28.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Just looking again at Spencer Elton's many Brabhams and MN says that the one he used at Weston 30 Sep 1972 was "the ex-Inglis BT21B". That must mean the ex-Geoff Inglis BT14/21 that Inglis had used in the first five rounds of that season's Sprint Championship before buying his March 702. MN says the Brabham had a 1.6 twin-cam in it rather than the supercharged 1.5-litre engine that Inglis used.

Then at Little Rissington two weeks later, Spencer was said to be having trouble with his BT30 and running an ex-Alan Rollinson BT21. I thought maybe BT21-49 but I see Chris has it (here) as BT21B-28.

Dependant on who wrote the pieces I wouldn't get overly excited. A lot of people contributed stuff to Muttering News and didn't always get the facts straight.

[Ted Walker]

Just read post377 to Spencer who comments sounded like utter b.....ks

[allenbrown]

So did he own the ex-Rollinson BT21B? And the ex-Inglis BT14/21?

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

"Beattie" is Bill Beattie. He is listed as a DNA at the F2 Leinster Trophy in July 1971 in "his ex-Bill Gowdy Brabham BT21" (MN 15 Jul 1971 p31).

Should read Bob Beattie - he had a Cooper FJ prior and an Elva FJ before that.

[Ted Walker]

Allen NO . He did sell Geoff Inglis the ex Guthrie March 702 though. He did have a 21B but not ex Rollinson

[allenbrown]

If he sold Inglis the March, did he take the Brabham in part-exchange? So what was the "BT21" that he used in those two late-1972 sprints and once at the beginning of 1973?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

If he sold Inglis the March, did he take the Brabham in part-exchange? So what was the "BT21" that he used in those two late-1972 sprints and once at the beginning of 1973?

For the two "late - 1972 sprints" I have Spencer driving his 1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21C-6.

At the begining of 1973 from the reports seen I have the car listed as 1.6 Brabham BT21/30 (meaning either a BT21 or a BT30 - if it is the BT21 then it would probably be BT21C-6). As Spencer posted a Rtd in the 1973 event I haven't been that motivated to solve the riddle however if any light could be shed ..........

[allenbrown]

Hadn't he sold that to Varley earlier in the season?

Autosport also say ex-Rollinson so they must have got that from somewhere. Journalists get confused but they don't make stuff up. And two separate journos don't make up the same thing. I'd suggest they got it from Spencer.

[Chris Townsend]

21B-28 is advertised by Spencer with the chassis number in Autosport in 1976 - sorry don't have exact reference - said to be ex Rollinson and Wilkins [Gerry rather than Adrian I would guess] iif my memory serves me right

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

21B-28 is advertised by Spencer with the chassis number in Autosport in 1976 - sorry don't have exact reference - said to be ex Rollinson and Wilkins [Gerry rather than Adrian I would guess] iif my memory serves me right

So could the car used by Spencer for the three meetings in question be BT21B-28? It seems possible.

By the way Allen, I have been urged by one of the Sub-editors, to whom I submit news stories and reports, to ensure that the content is interesting and to this end I should consider making things up. A sort of 'never let the truth get in the way of a good story'.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

BT21C-17 ,

New to Malcolm Eaves , but did not appear untill Prescott Spring meeting 1970 , apparently due to Ron T. not wanting to build it with the Buick eng , and when it did appear the eng. bay [ from memory ] was BT23C.

1971-1973 Peter Boshier Jones with Buick.
1973-1979 Nigel Pow with 5 litre quad cam Repco.
1979-1981 John Harper .
1981-1983 to Les Wright in Australia.
1983-1987 to Clive Osborne in Oz .
1987-present back to Les Wright Oz.

Bryan.

I see from hill climb programmes in 1973 (Peter Boshier-Jones) and 1974 (Nigel Pow) that it was entered as BT21/23C, although I recorded it as BT21C-17.

This is a minor point (from post 41) that came to light while searching for info on other BT21s.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

So could the car used by Spencer for the three meetings in question be BT21B-28? It seems possible.

By the way Allen, I have been urged by one of the Sub-editors, to whom I submit news stories and reports, to ensure that the content is interesting and to this end I should consider making things up. A sort of 'never let the truth get in the way of a good story'.

See posts 15, 17 and 201. My comment is that Gerry and Angel Wilkins who had/used the car in 1975 came from Bath, just down the road from Westbury, home of Spencer Elton. The car could easily have gone back and forwards. I believe Les Stone from Basingstoke acquired it in 1976.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

For the two "late - 1972 sprints" I have Spencer driving his 1.6 Brabham-Ford/Vegantune TC BT21C-6.

This car definitely in the hands of Peter Varley during 1972. Check MN 4 May 1972 p28 for chapter and verse on this, right down to the chassis number.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Should read Bob Beattie - he had a Cooper FJ prior and an Elva FJ before that.

Indeed it should. MN 11 May 1972 p14 has a report on the Enniskerry hillclimb and has Bob Beattie in a 1.6 BT21-twin-cam going well. Vivian Candy won in another BT21-t/c and Richie Conroy's Lola T100 was the only other twin-cam runner.

[Alan Brown]

http://tentenths.com/forum/attachmen...9&d=1233799788

I found the above attachment on the Elva Mk 7 & 8 thread. The interesting reference is in the second topic (Transmitted by Marsh) to the the Brabham that was being built for Bryan Brown for the 1968 season. Chris Mason in Uphill Racers page 217 refers to Peter Blankstone using in 1969 "the 4.5 Oldsmobile-powered Brabham BT21 4WD (Marsh System) which Chas Beattie had built up for Bryan Brown, but which the latter had not used". Was it a Brabham/Brabham-based? It was often referred to in period as the BT21 Quattro.

In addition, Mason (page 207) says of the 1968 season "Bryan Eccles planned a BT21A Oldsmobile 4.2 disconnectable Marsh 4WD". He never competed. Was this car built? Or is it the same car as Peter Blankstone had?

Further reference: Autopsort 1-3-68 Seasonal Survey on hill climbs by Simon Taylor.

[Ted Walker]

The Blankstone car used a BT21 chassis. As for the Eccles car dont think it was ever constructed

[eric petersen]

Hi Community,
i am looking for the detailed Drawing of the Bt 21 . My One is the Bt21#11 Ex Kurt Ahrens . I need it for my new racing transporter . I like to copy it ( much greater ) as a image on these transporter .
eric@phoneattack.com
and is there anyone who had pictures / or a movie from the F3 Races :
Großer Preis der Nationen 1967 Hockenheim
Avus Berlin 1967
or any other picture where the BT 21 from Kurt Ahrens ( The White Caltex Car ) is showing
I need it for myself and for my new Homepage www.vulcano-racing.com(coming soon )
Thanks Eric

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

OK


28: Winfield Racing for Mike Knight then 1968 to Len Gibbs and retained

Chris Holland was out practising at Brands on Saturday in this car. I gather that he did the odd race last year after restoration (all parts such as nose, wheels etc were kept and not thrown away). The car was sold when the Len Gibbs estate was settled after his death - through Keith Norman, Keith Messer/Vivien Ayres. So a very long period of inactivity, which means that it was remarkably original.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Was the car entered by Frank Lythgoe for Gethin at the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch on 17th March 1968 BT21B-28 or BT23C-2?

I had assumed it was the BT21 'till I saw the the FIA form for BT23C-2 where I see it claims that it ran a BMW engine for that one event. Ted I assume its your signature as registrar so what do you have that confirms this?
I also see that it says Lythgoe had BT23C-2 in 1967.

Andrew

[Chris Townsend]

21B-28 was new at Monaco, 1968 so it wasn't that
I have Gethin's ROC car as BT21-33 and then run by John Millar with the BMW still in it

Chris

[Andrew Fellowes]

Thanks Chris,
23C-2 has had one engine bay chassis rail modified with the suggestion this was in order to fit a BMW engine, (which would be about right) but I suspect this explanation is just guess work.

I imagine then that the history section of the old FIA forms were never checked and one could write whatever b/s one wanted to claim?

Andrew

[edholly]

Back on page 8, I first posted about my BT21C, AM288, and there has been some help offered by various members in recent times which is greatly appreciated.

I recently got an email from John Delane who was the 2nd last owner and to whom a history file compiled by Russell Baldwin, 3rd last and owner for 20 years, to tell me he had found the missing history file. John scanned the main sheet it contained and sent to me and I started ringing the numbers which are probably 20+ years old by now. Mostly the numbers were disconnected, however nearing the end of the list I rang a Don Smethers who turns out to be the racer who put the centre cockpit sports racer body (red & yellow) on the frame and raced it as a CSR with a 2 litre Pinto motor. Within minutes of the conversation I had a photo by email of the car in this form winning the Northwest Grand Prix at Deer Park Wa in 1982.

Don told me he had bought the car off "Leaky" Kevin from Bill Craine's workshop. The car was in pieces and Don put it back together including making a square tube underframe which he welded to the chassis and made the bodywork for it. It is quite an attractive car in the photos he sent me.

Prior to Leaky which turns out to be Kevin Cobert, the search gets difficult once again. Russell Baldwin's notes make reference of Pierre Phillips trading it in with a guy from New Jersey, which if correct, I think means it travelled from the East coast to the West coast and the trade was done for a Lola Formula Ford. I have spoken to Pierre and he doesn't recall that specifically, but as he said many many cars went through his hands (100's) and so that is not to say this didn't happen.

This gets the car back to around late 70s.

Out of all this the key to history prior to Cobert / Smethers could be the baby blue (light blue) bodywork. An unusual color for a racing car and the color I chose for it during its restoration. From Cobert / Smethers I believe I now have most of the owners, before it was sold to Philippe De Lespinay.

So any USA based Chassis archives fans, if you remember a BT21C or BT21, it may have simply been entered as a BT21, that was light blue your help would be most appreciated.

Also in Don's correspondence, there may have been other Brabhams that met a similar fate to mine becoming CSR's for a while and I am sure Don would help if he could - PM me if you want contact details.

Don is lying 2nd carrying the No 5 on the car in the attached photo.

Ed

[mikestow]

Hello one and all.I have just found this website,whilst trying to contact some of my past!!Also have only just recovered from a severe secondary infection(MSSA),after suffering Organophosphate Poisoning over many years of Commercial and Military Flying.That is me,as I am now,so you may have to forgive the above.During the late 60s and early 70s I was involved in Racing in UK .The above Brabham was owned by me from April 1968,purchased through my long standing Mate,Mike Ticehurst of MRE.Previous threads are correct in that it WAS the ex Doug Revson car,and used by Phil Tose,until his accident in 67.Peter Westbury,also a friend,of Felday and FIRST,confirmed it was Revsons car when he put a Felday in it for David Cole for a Brands Meeting summer 69.I lived close to Graham Coaker,David Cole,and many others in Twyford,Berks.I did NOT have Chassis 19.46 was the only BT21 I had until replaced by BT28-20 in Aug 69.It was used by Ian Walker Team Celerity from 1967 until I bought it,although it kept its Yellow,Green Stripes,colour scheme-later green changed to black.The "Mod" from straight 21 to 21B was the changing position of the Top Longeron which had been connected to the Top Chassis member,but Ron Tauranac lowered it to a new fixing point,on the vertical tube running down to the bottom chassis member.Also some cars were fitted with the bigger AR Calipers on the front.This car was fitted with the later Glassfibre rear engine cover from Specialised Mouldinds,and had special Drive Shafts made by Graham Coaker,that had the Formula 2 type spigots to locate the spiders,to stop the Drive Coupling whipping too much.This gave a longer life to the Doughnuts.This was done by Bert Hawthorne,when he bought Graham's BT21B-20,as these shafts had been on that car.Also I had the 10s and 12s from Grahams Car,as Bert had his own wheels.Graham drove this car at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone,whilst I was waiting for my BT28.Incidentally Graham had an arrangement with Alan Fenn ,production manager ar MRD.He was able to get a New Chassis direct from the jig,together with suspension hubs etc,without any finishing,from Arch Motors.Back in Slough,where he worked at GKN,he took the parts to "VacuBlast" for shotblasting,then next door to Alex Electroplating for stove enamelling/cadplating.Dave Brodie ran that shop!Then picked up the Body from Red Wongs Way(Specialised Mouldings).Thus we were able to reduce the normal prices to get going with a new car-I was able to do the same with the BT28-20.Bert Hawthorne kept Grahams new Novamoter Engine,and I had Graham's rebilut Lucas MAE.Both of our Cars were kept at Winkelmans,although Frank Williams was across the Bath Road.The mechanics at Winkelmans were a great help,and could assist freely-Pete Ker and Johnny Martin,followed by Dewer Thomas.Howden Ganley kept his Brabham then Chevron there as well.Jim Gleave was the chief race shop manager at MRE,and he checked all the suspension settings and spring rates ,before testing,if time permitted.We managed to get to the first meetings,usually Brands,before the works cars got going in that year!!Sometimes a bit slowly as the Cars were being out together the day or night before.I hope this gives a clue as to what used to happen then.I have loads of photos of the period with the BT21 and 28 and 28/35,also Lotus 59 F3,59BF2.

[mikestow]

Edit for the above.I confused Graham Coaker's BT21B with my BT28 chassis no.Grahams BT21B was definitely No18.This was sold to Bert Hawthorne,who later sold it in UK before returning to NZ,to drive another Brabham BT21 and then the Tui,in which he was killed.Doug Revson's previous BT21 drives were in chassis 19,but I seem to remember he was involved in the Multi Car pile up after the first lap at Caserta in June/July 67.I was there with Mike Ticehurst,but cant remember the exact date.Revson drove Chassis 19 for Ian Walker Team Celerity,not as a private entrant.This chassis was very badly twisted may have been written off, as new ones were so readily available,and Chassis 46(My Car) was probably a replacement.Also apart from Arch Motors,Progress Frames produced copy BT18/21 Frames,so several drivers could have had these instead of Arch chassis,at a much lower cost.For RAC Carnet purposes,lots of guys retained previous chassis details,or borrowed from friends,who were not using their cars,so records of chassis numbers for foreign events could be easily confused.Both Carnet and Acquit certificates were not easy to change at will,so this may easily account for oddities.In the 50s Ken Gregory used only one chassis number for his 250FMaserati,but 2504 and 2506 shared the same carnet!!!It used to happen all the time,when impoverished english gentlemen could indulge in this sport,that has now gone haywire in costs.