Brabham BT21 - Page 9

Alan Brown · 10 Jan 2007, 18:45 (Ref:1811662)

Sorry, but I have very few observations on BT21s, particularly F3 ones.
However, I can offer a couple of comments on BT21B-28/Lotus twin cam hill climb car, which has been mentioned several times in its earlier days. In 1975 Gerry + Angel Wilkins had it and in 1980 Les Stone. I have Les Stone in a BT21B/Lotus twin cam in 1976 and 1978 so presumably it is the same car. He used it up to 1989 at least (more recent records, than that, are in another box).

allenbrown · 10 Jan 2007, 20:07 (Ref:1811723)

Thanks for that Alan.

I found a feature on Wayne Mitchell (Autosport 11 Jul 1969 p40) which clarifies the two different BT21-type cars he had.

1) a "well used" BT21B from Frank Williams which he then took into UK and European F3. This must have been 1968 although the article doesn't make that clear. Having a quick flick through formula2.net, the only results I can see are a 9th at Montlhéry on 12 May, 12th at Monza on 19 May, DNQ at Monaco 25 May and a DNS at Chimay 2 June. The car was crashed, repaired in the UK and then taken to the US where Wayne appears in a FC "BT21B/C" from July onwards. The article says the car was then sold to Chip Gamph for FF. If this car was "well-used" by 12 May, I'm not sure how it can have been a BT21B. Did Frank have one of the very early BT21Bs?

2) John Campbell's BT21 bought unseen while wating for his BT29 in 1969.

Allen

Chris Townsend · 10 Jan 2007, 23:15 (Ref:1811877)

Mitchell's BT21B went to Chris Gompf to run FF in California. I think [and Wayne can doubtless answer this] that Chris was one of his main helpers in his Euro F3 venture.

Williams probably has a very early 21B. He has an entry at Barcelona in November 68 when the three P&M cars, chassis 1,3 & 4 debut. Car doesn't show but this suggests to me chassis 2...
Burton appears in a Williams 21B early in 68.

Chris

Denis Lupton · 11 Jan 2007, 03:00 (Ref:1811978)

Re phone conversation with Jim Hardman today,
Jim rented/leased the car to Mike Beuttler for one race meeting in 1969, as Beuttler was waiting for BT28.Also, Keith Jupp had his own BT21B,Jim clearly
remember's being alongside him on the grid at several meeting's, also being parked beside him in several paddock's.
More to follow as Jim has promised to find his photo's and record's and give
me access to them.
Cheers Denis

Alan Brown · 11 Jan 2007, 08:10 (Ref:1812071)

Another hill climb observation.
At Great Auclum in 1972 C S Barrow was entered in a Brabham BT21-C Lotus 1600. I overwrote the BT21-C with the chassis number BT21-41. This would seem to fit an earlier post that BT21-41 went into F Libre after being with FIRST (Mac Daghorn).

Steve Wilkinson · 11 Jan 2007, 12:34 (Ref:1812273)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

I can offer a couple of comments on BT21B-28/Lotus twin cam hill climb car, which has been mentioned several times in its earlier days.

In 1975 Gerry + Angel Wilkins had it and in 1980 Les Stone. I have Les Stone in a BT21B/Lotus twin cam in 1976 and 1978 so presumably it is the same car. He used it up to 1989 at least (more recent records, than that, are in another box).

Could BT21B-28 be the car that is recorded in the British Sprint database as a BT21/30 which Spencer Elton drove in 1973?

allenbrown · 11 Jan 2007, 20:19 (Ref:1812640)

Spencer was there today but I didn't think to ask him about his BT21. You were probably posting this just as he and I were chatting.

He entered several events early in 1973 in a "BT30" but I'm not sure that he ever turned up in one. His "BT30" may have turned out to be the BT21(C?) updated in some way, thus "BT21/30". On the other hand, Spencer told me that he had several BT30s.

I reckon we need to put together a list of his known appearances together with the description of the cars as they appeared at the time and then sit down with him and see if he can remember when he moved from one car to another.

Allen

Steve Wilkinson · 12 Jan 2007, 10:41 (Ref:1813104)

I have tracked down some additional information with respect to one of the British Sprint BT21 chassis.

The car used by Robin Boucher on 20th June 1987 at the Ramsay Road sprint on the Isle of Man (1.1 Brabham-Ford/Holbay MAE BT21) was owned by Roger Lewis and entered by him as a 'BRATT-Brabham BT21'. Lewis also competed in the Isle of Man event but as I suspected was not registered for the championship.

Anyone any clues as to which car this is? I did a search of the thread and nothing popped up for Roger Lewis or BRATT.

Hugh Moore · 12 Jan 2007, 12:55 (Ref:1813191)

I am currently rebuilding a Brabham BT21 the dash plate number is BT 21 A 01 bought from Roy Lane so time ago. Roy said that it had been used in the channel islands as a sand racer and believed that it had in it's past been raced by tony Lanfranchi.
Can anyone help me. Thanks Hugh Moore.
I currently live in South Africa.

allenbrown · 12 Jan 2007, 13:45 (Ref:1813219)

Hugh

Lanfranchi drove BT21s and BT21Bs in F3 but the only time I am aware that he drove a BT21A was at Oulton Park 28 Sep 1968 when he drove Robin Darlington's BT21A in a libre race. That car has been identified above as BT21A/2.

What is the AM number on the car?

Allen

Alan Brown · 13 Jan 2007, 08:22 (Ref:1813857)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Spencer was there today but I didn't think to ask him about his BT21. You were probably posting this just as he and I were chatting.

He entered several events early in 1973 in a "BT30" but I'm not sure that he ever turned up in one. His "BT30" may have turned out to be the BT21(C?) updated in some way, thus "BT21/30". On the other hand, Spencer told me that he had several BT30s.

Allen

Do not forget that he used a BT30 (plated BT29X-37) in 1972. I have him in BT21C-6 Lotus Vegantune in 1970-1.

allenbrown · 13 Jan 2007, 09:09 (Ref:1813877)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

Do not forget that he used a BT30 (plated BT29X-37) in 1972.

I had forgotten. Thanks.

Alan Brown · 13 Jan 2007, 09:53 (Ref:1813894)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Interestingly , I was just looking at an advert. M.R.E. inside front cover Autosport 27/1/1972.
For Sale .

1] BT21 rolling chassis.
2] BT21 F.Ford ex. Tony Hanson , fitted with BT28 bodywork.

The problem area always will be for us, the people in the U.K. who broke cars up as spares, and the other big problem is that some cars did , 1] not do much work, and 2] were used by non famous people , and/or in club events.

Breaking up of race cars over here virtually did not happen , as the cost with import duties of a new car was substantial , so the cars kept on being updated with bigger wheels , chassis stiffening , different eng. for a new formula etc. so the cars were in most cases still extant, where over your side of the pond , when it was a few years old , there was a fair chance that it was used a source of spares.

Regards Bryan.

While searching amongst old programmes for info on BT21s, I came across an entry in a F Ford race at Thruxton 22-8-71. The details, as printed were "Tonny Hansen Brabham BT21/35 blue/white". Seems to be one of the cars in the advert, but may be confusion over what to call the bodywork. It seems to have practised, but did not race.

edholly · 5 Feb 2007, 04:24 (Ref:1833654)

Back on page 8, I made a request for help with information on a BT21C. This coincided with the move of the thread to the chassis archive and it may have not been seen by all that follow this fabulous forum.

The car has an AM number of 288. A couple of things have come to light, I now have 2 independent sources that may indicate the possibility that the car is BT21C-14

One of these was from Bill Schlossnagel, a racecar engineer in the US who had a card with this reference to it when he worked on it for Russell Baldwin, and Dennis Lupton kindly told me he had a pencil notation alongside the AM number also with that number. As you will see on page 8, there is no guarantee though that this is its number.

The car was sold new to W. McLoughlin (not sure of the spelling), but I am unable to find any reference to him anywhere, or even if he was in the UK, USA or elsewhere. The car ended up in the US, but it may have been an import by Fred Opert in period when only a year or two old.

Can anyone shed any light on W. McLoughlin please, and I will try to trace history from the beginning, as well as continuing to work backwards in time, prior to Philippe De Lespinay’s ownership around 1984.

Ed Holly

LoLola · 5 Feb 2007, 04:38 (Ref:1833656)

Have you tried the Brabham registry? I was able to shed more light on my mistaken identity through some past records they have. Originally I thought my BT21c-16 was the car owned by Wayne Mitchell and followed that trail only to realize that his was apparently not a C car . The registry supplied me with the first owners of Wally Ward and another last name of Andreiri in the USA. Which would be more consistent with the US FB entries.

John Hafkenschiel at the registry 916-454-1115

Nick

Andrew Fellowes · 5 Feb 2007, 04:58 (Ref:1833662)

here is another stray from Autosprint 26th July 1971

Brabham BT21 nuovo - ottimo per F Ford
Gianfranco Bielli
Via dela Ricostruziobe 34
20053 MUGGIO'

dble post arggggggh!

Andrew Fellowes · 5 Feb 2007, 05:05 (Ref:1833663)

here is another stray from Autosprint 26th July 1971, not a lot of use in isolation.

Brabham BT21 nuovo - ottimo per F Ford.

Gianfranco Bielli
Via dela Ricostruzione 34
20053 MUGGIO' - Tel 039/43814

edholly · 5 Feb 2007, 05:34 (Ref:1833665)

John Hafkenschiel inspected the car in De Lespinay's ownership and recorded the AM 288 number in his records along with identifying it as a BT21C. That was around the early to mid 80s

Ed

allenbrown · 5 Feb 2007, 09:24 (Ref:1833742)

Wish I could help you Ed but all I can say is that the AM number is consistent with a late 1968 car.

Euromontagna · 14 Feb 2007, 21:08 (Ref:1841635)

my BT21 records
Eggel - 1970 St. Ursanne
Rey - 1971 Ollon Villars
Burkard - 1972 St. Ursanne

Dan Bruggeman · 4 Apr 2007, 15:36 (Ref:1883441)

Hello, We just finished restoring a BT-21? and looking for help with the history. We believe it to be a 1968 BT-21C.
The chasis number is AM224 and does it provide any details to the history or configuration?
Does anyone know where I can get a dash plate for this car?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Dan

allenbrown · 4 Apr 2007, 16:22 (Ref:1883481)

AM224 seems a bit early to be a BT21C. The early BT21Bs that appeared late 1967 had AM numbers slightly higher than yours and I would have expect the first BT21C to follow on in early 1968.

Could it be a 1967 BT21A? Do you have any history on it? Does it have a SCCA number stamped on the rollover hoop?

Allen

Chris Townsend · 4 Apr 2007, 21:39 (Ref:1883678)

Welcome Dan,

I'd go with Allen that it's more likely to be a BT21A. AM223 is in BT21A-10 and AM227 inside BT21A-7. Maybe Denis Lupton has something in his notes on the period?

In addition to any SCCA stamps, can you tell us where the car was located?

Chris

Dan Bruggeman · 6 Apr 2007, 15:40 (Ref:1884961)

Thanks Chris & Allen for your feedback.
We haven't noticed stampings on the roll hoop even when the chassis was stripped.
Did the SCCA also drill holes for wall thickness checks then?
When I purchased the car it had Girling brakes, 7" & 9" wobblys and the rear roll hoop support attached far left.
I was wonder the original configuration FB, F3, or F2?
I'm traveling but when I return I"ll reply with the SCCA # and were the car has been.
Does anyone have replica dash plates?
Thanks again,
Dan

allenbrown · 6 Apr 2007, 15:44 (Ref:1884966)

If it was a BT21A, it would have been a Ford twin-cam car - for libre or hillclimbing in the UK or for FB in the US.

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