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15 Oct 2019, 14:55 (Ref:3934694) | #1 | ||
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What about the "old" GT3 race cars?
Hi all
I was wondering how many GT3 cars had been built in all? An earlier thread indicated that around 500 had been built by all manufacturers, but then stated that Audi alone had built 200, which seemed odd. So first question, how many GT3 cars in total do the learned here estimate have been built and how many from the major manufacturers (e.g. Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Aston, Audi, etc.). Secondly, what percentage do people believe have been written off through accidents, converted to other / updated race cars, etc. Thirdly, what is going to happen to all the GT3 cars not racing because they are no longer competitive against the latest and greatest? Do people see "historic" racing of these cars in the near term (like we see with historic Group C racing now), or will they migrate down to "club racing" - for example at the Old Timer GP at the Nurburgring this year the German Ferrari Owners Club had a couple or races that included GT3's (458 and 488) as well as Challenge cars (360, 430 and 458) as well as the odd 430 GTE and the like. I imagine that as GT3 cars get more sophisticated and more costly to run (like the Ferrari 458 having turbos versus the 458 being normally aspirated) and potentially becoming "hybrid" of sorts will the "older" GT3 cars become more sought after? And if so how / where will they be used / raced? Really interested in people's views! Last edited by deimh; 15 Oct 2019 at 15:03. |
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15 Oct 2019, 16:31 (Ref:3934715) | #2 | ||
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Regarding the numbers built, a lot depends on the question how you count the first generation one-make cars like the Porsche 997 GT3 Cup, the Ferrari 430 Challenge or the Viper CC. Back in 2006, they were all elegible - with minor modifications - for GT3 competition and especially the Porsche Cup car was produced in massive numbers - I'd be surprised if the Porsche alone didn't account for 500 cars.
I guess, though, that you are more interested in the slightly later 2nd generation of GT3 cars, i.e. the first group of really bespoke cars such as the original Audi R8, the BMW Z4 and the Mercedes SLS. It's quite surprising, but you really don't see many of those around anymore, even in club competition - now I don't know what the reason for this could be, but those 2009 - 2014 cars really aren't raced anywhere in great numbers despite there being so many of them around. |
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15 Oct 2019, 18:46 (Ref:3934744) | #3 | |||
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Quote:
Do people think that there are between 500 and 1000 of these second generation GT3 cars out there? And are they all gathering dust somewhere, or written off / broken-up? Also, your answer implied that there is a 3rd Generation of GT3 from 2015 onwards - is this the case and how do these differ from the 2009-14 cars? |
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15 Oct 2019, 20:19 (Ref:3934779) | #4 | |||
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Quote:
Gen 1: original one make cars and cars produced by tuners like Reiter or low volume manufacturers like Morgan and Mosler Gen 2: the first of the bespoke factory-built cars such as the SLS, the original R8 and the Porsche 997 GT3R. I don't think there are more than 500 of those, probably considerably less, seeing how the GT3 market was already contracting at the time with several series shutting down or moving away from an all GT3 format. Gen 3: the second wave of factory-built cars and the ultimate demise of tuner operations with Reiter losing the license to build the new Lambo. So that's the Huracan, the angular looking R8 and the AMG GT. There are some cars that are inbetweeners like the original Vantage, debuting in 2010(?) but being Aston's main weapon all the way to 2018. Similarly, the Nissan only saw a major update last year. Last edited by Speed-King; 15 Oct 2019 at 20:27. |
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15 Oct 2019, 22:21 (Ref:3934804) | #5 | ||
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Thanks for the insights.
So just to understand (and using a single marque as an example): Gen 1: Ferrari 360/430 GTE Gen 2: Ferrari 458 GT3 Gen 3: Ferrari 488 GT3 Is that your thinking? |
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16 Oct 2019, 15:24 (Ref:3934979) | #6 | ||
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The 360 never was a GT3 car, so for the Ferrari the first generation would be the F430 GT3, and maybe as a Generation 1.5 the 430 Scuderia, which (like the Porsche Cup-S, and the Viper Series 2) was an attempt by the factory to update the one-make series car to keep it competitive with the bespoke GT3s.
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16 Oct 2019, 10:11 (Ref:3934910) | #7 | ||
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Does anyone keep a list of chassis numbers for any of the marques?
It would be interesting to see the histories of the cars, how many get the annual updates and race for multiple seasons and then drop down the hierarchy of races into series with more liberal regulations and get further tweaks. Are any GT3 cars racing in the 'GT Legends' type series or is that just 'Le Mans spec' GT cars so far? |
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16 Oct 2019, 15:33 (Ref:3934981) | #8 | |||
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Quote:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143190 Not sure if there are lists for any of the others around. |
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16 Oct 2019, 22:16 (Ref:3935071) | #9 | ||
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The link that lists all the Aston's got me wondering how many of the slightly more plentiful GT3 cars might have been built - so I have started trying to compile how many separate Ferrari 458 GT3 cars were being raced across the various series between 2011 (first year of the 458 GT3) and 2016 (first year of the 488 GT3).
I am hoping to see a shift of 458 GT3's from the larger / prestigious race series to the smaller / less-prestigious ones. So far this is what I have compiled across the below Series: Year **** A **** B *** C *** D *** E 2011 **** 7 **** 7 *** 0 *** 0 *** ? 2012 *** 19 *** 16 *** 0 *** 3 *** ? 2013 *** 35 *** 30 *** 2 *** 3 *** ? 2014 *** 30 *** 21 *** 4 *** 5 *** ? 2015 *** 33 *** 24 *** 1 *** 5 *** 3 2016 *** 13 **** 7 *** 1 *** 5 *** ? Where: A = Total Ferrari 458 GT3 B = Blancpain Endurance Series C = Blancpain GT World Challenge Europe D = Australian GT Championship E = 24H Its interesting to see how the 458 GT3 is most plentiful in 2013 and then starts to fade away in these "premier classes", despite still being produced by Ferrari up to the end of 2015. Can people point to which other Series are most likley to have included the highest number of separate 458 GT3's so I can try and make the above analysis more complete and try to "confirm" how many 458 GT3's are likley to have been produce? Last edited by deimh; 16 Oct 2019 at 22:26. |
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17 Oct 2019, 04:44 (Ref:3935099) | #10 | ||
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From the top of my head, the only other series with major GT3 fields around that time period were International GT Open, Pirelli World Challenge, IMSA/Grand Am, ADAC GT and British GT, though the latter were usually rather light on Ferraris. I keep forgetting when the GT3 iteration of French GT collapsed, but they had quite a few Ferraris running in their last years as well.
Edit: Forgot about the Asian series, so there are probably a few more in GT Asia, Thailand Supercar and perhaps in Super GT or one of the Chinese national series, though my information on that is really somewhat limited. |
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17 Oct 2019, 07:35 (Ref:3935118) | #11 | ||
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In the case of Maserati, the count is simple:
- 10 Trofeo Light GT3 (2004-2006) - 1 Gran Turismo MC GT3 (2013) |
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17 Oct 2019, 15:18 (Ref:3935201) | #12 | |
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Ferrari (Michelotto) built around 105 458 GT3's.
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17 Oct 2019, 15:39 (Ref:3935209) | #13 | ||
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Sorry, I missed your message whilst I was writing my previous message.
That is brilliant data - thanks for that Middelboe! This shows that so far I am only accounting for about half of all the 458 GT3's built - but as I mentioned, my analysis is incomplete and I will expand it and try to determine where the "missing" 50-odd 458 GT3's were racing. Can I please ask what the source of the 105 number is and how confident you are that it is correct. I ask this as I am struggling to think where the other 50 or so 458 GT3's were / missing from my analysis. Also, any insights in to production levels year by year - I assume that most were built between 2011 to 2013 when their demand was highest? Also, do you have a feel / data on how many of the 105 458 GT3's might have been written off - or are their values such that even in the event of a huge crash they would be rebodied on a new monocoque? Interested in your further insights! |
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23 Oct 2019, 09:50 (Ref:3936372) | #14 | |
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17 Oct 2019, 22:54 (Ref:3935275) | #15 | ||
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Some GT3s such as the 458 , MP4 12c and R8 LMS Ultra have been racing in historic series and been performing well. Maybe a possible individual class for the future.
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24 Oct 2019, 23:58 (Ref:3936642) | #16 | ||
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In the US Trans Am will now have a class for 2016 and earlier GT-3 cars. http://gotransam.com/news/Trans-Am-S...pZDeEa-8cJoR5E
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25 Oct 2019, 11:25 (Ref:3936688) | #17 | |
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And from that press release:
“There are believed to be more than 100 GT3 race cars in North America that are no longer eligible to run in the professional series that they originally competed in,” said Trans Am Company President John Clagett. “These cars have a lot of good life remaining in them, but there are not really any good places for those cars to race competitively. The Trans Am Series intends to deliver a professionally-run series for drivers to compete in these cars and fully exhibit their potential.” |
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