A1 GP Race Director Fired??

[Suze]

Hm, interesting!

[cornercaptain]

Originally Posted by Woolley

... exercising the right to reply about something he clearly knows - or cares - nothing about, and using foul language while doing so. ... I was mystified by his claim not to have seen the flag - he didn't seem to know which lap it referred to, suggesting it was the first lap ... A very poor show, but sadly the sort of thing we have to put up with far too often as these highly paid superstars assume that mere volunteers don't know what they're doing.

Thank all of you for the nice welcome.

I was not able to find any English language articles that quoted Jos, and couldn't work out a decent translation of anything from Dutch. Does anyone have something they could point me to?

Thanks.

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by cornercaptain

I was not able to find any English language articles that quoted Jos, and couldn't work out a decent translation of anything from Dutch. Does anyone have something they could point me to?

Hi cornercaptain. It was nice to meet you all over there last weekend. I was very well looked after and made very welcome.

I found the following on pitpass following on from somebody else's link. You need to scroll down a bit to find the Netherlands

PJ

[cornercaptain]

Originally Posted by Rime

Nice story, good to read the opinion of a true insider. But the regulations of A1GP are pretty clear on this ...

I always wish the sanctioning bodies would give the corner workers their rules and guidelines. We often try to find them ourselves before we attend a professional race. Champ Car has always been good about providing them to us and ALMS is easy to find on their web site. Most of the others though do not provide them, and A1GP did not.

As a matter of fact we asked on Friday, when we were on standby almost all day during the massive cleanup effort, which flagging rules were going to be used (FIA or other) and we were told that they would let us know - after we got out on course. (sigh) Bear in mind that A1GP had hired IMSA to actually "operate" the event, so there was quite a chain of communication to follow. A1GP had to give the information to IMSA, then IMSA relayed it to SCCA. Our only contact with the operation of the event all weekend was the IMSA stewards. We work with IMSA quite often so we know them well. However, no officials from A1GP attended our flag meetings.

Often the flag rules change while the event is going on! This happens frequently with NASCAR, and it did happen with A1GP this weekend as well.

You'll notice that during the Sprint race we had a Safety Car situation right away. We were told by Control to put the SC boards up, at which time most of us started waving a single yellow as we had been told in the morning meeting. Then Control said "no flags, just the boards" so we put the flags down (you can never, ever disobey Control, no matter how right you think you are or what you were told in the morning meeting). When the Safety Car actually had the field we were told to put the single waving yellow up. Later Control said there had been a bit of miscommunication and the next time they called for a Safety Car we were to put the flag and the board up at the same time. It happens.

At any rate, I believe that because of the pit exit lane configuration at Laguna Seca, A1GP had to re-determine a fair location of the Blend Line. You have to determine some precise location at which, during a Safety Car situation, a car coming out of the pits and a car on course are scored according to who reaches that point first. Normally a Blend Line would be found close to where the physical pit lane joins the track. At Laguna Seca there are actually two options for how to blend cars onto the course from the pit lane. One is for the vehicles to blend immediately into race traffic. The other is for the vehicles to stay in the pit exit lane all the way around Turn 2 as we saw this weekend. For most of the professional races at Laguna and certainly the high-speed events, the sanctioning bodies prefer to use the entire pit exit lane. The front straight at Laguna is the highest speed portion of the course and also as you come through Start/Finish, you are cresting a blind hill. This is also the first point where traffic can blend in from the pit lane. I hope I am painting an adequate picture of how dangerous this is. That is the reason why most sanctioning bodies choose to use the entire pit exit lane and use the Blend Line in the exit of Turn 2.

Under [I]260, "a car rejoining the track must proceed at reduced speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the safety car" that pertains to cars that have already reached the Blend Line and are trying to catch the field. For this weekend, the pit lane speed limit (60kph) ended at the Re-Entry flagger, and the competitors were told they could race to the Blend Line in the exit of Turn 2. So you had cars in the pit exit lane that were racing against cars that were still on the course proper.

I'm not sure what the issue would be regarding [I]225. The blue issued by a Re-Entry person is for safety only and the corners would not issue blues during a Safety Car period. In our case, since we had to provide a Blend Line Judge, it made sense to have our blue flagger stop and then be able to concentrate on being the Judge. The speeds are low enough and the visibility is good enough in the exit of Turn 2 that blending can occur safely. I certainly didn't feel that a "safety blue" was necessary there.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Rime

@ Cornercaptain

Nice story, good to read the opinion of a true insider. But the regulations of A1GP are pretty clear on this:

213:
It is the responsibility of each competitor (and its team) to release its car back onto the track after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.

260:
While the Safety Car is in operation, competing cars may stop at their Pit, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the pit exit is on. The green light will be on at all times except when the Safety Car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A CAR REJOINING THE TRACK MUST PROCEED AT REDUCED SPEED UNTIL IT REACHES THE END OF THE LINE OF CARS BEHIND THE SAFETY CAR.

225:
During both races, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the pit exit light is green at their own risk. A MARSHALL WITH A BLUE FLAG, OR A FLASHING BLUE LIGHT, WILL ALSO WARN THE DRIVER IF CARS ARE APPROACHING ON THE TRACK.

c/p from Forum Verstappen.nl

As an experienced pit marshal I don't understand the significance of the regulations that you've quoted to the situation described?

I haven't checked the source of the reg's (or whether there are other reg's that are more relevant but what you've quoted refers to :

213 - how a team releases a car from it's pit box after a pit stop - it bears no relevance to how a car joins the track.

260 - refers to how the pit exit is operated, it's what I call the "old" FIA procedure - the exit is green other than when the S/C and train is passing. In theory this should mean that a car exiting the pit lane isn't near another car but if you have stragglers that will always be a problem. The approach of organisers is usually to go red at exit whilst the S/C and train is passing and then to take a view on stragglers. This is often problematic if the person operating the exit lights can't see the track which is VERY common. But anyway I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of this given what Cornercaptain has said above? If there were yellow flags on the track then there are yellow flags......

225 - Again this deals with the car leaving the pit lane and whether it gets a blue flag - I don't see the relevance to the car on the track?

I can't see that any of these regulations contradict what Cornercaptain has said?

[Rime]

The point is that, when Verstappen was 'overtaking' Enge under yellow, Thomas Enge was leaving the pitlane and was rejoining the track. Verstappen on the other hand was driving on the track closing the gap to the safetycar.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in my opinion Enge should have get blue flags and let Verstappen pass.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Rime

The point is that, when Verstappen was 'overtaking' Enge under yellow, Thomas Enge was leaving the pitlane and was rejoining the track. Verstappen on the other hand was driving on the track closing the gap to the safetycar.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in my opinion Enge should have get blue flags and let Verstappen pass.

None of the reg's that you've quoted apply to Verstappen's conduct on the track and that is what is relevant rather than Enge's conduct in joining the circuit.

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by Rime

The point is that, when Verstappen was 'overtaking' Enge under yellow, Thomas Enge was leaving the pitlane and was rejoining the track. Verstappen on the other hand was driving on the track closing the gap to the safetycar.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in my opinion Enge should have get blue flags and let Verstappen pass.

I am assuming that Verstappen was trying to catch up with the train (otherwise the pit exit would have been closed and Enge shouldn't have been leaving the pits).

In this case (as cornercaptain said) whoever reached the blend-line first, as observed by the blend-line judge, was judged to be ahead whether he was on the track or the pit lane. So if Enge reached the blend line first, Verstappen shouldn't have overtaken him.

FWIW, showing the blue flag to Enge would not have meant he had to let Verstappen past.

PJ

[Woolley]

But were the pits closed? At LMES Silverstone last year, the pit exit regulations changed by the half hour. Corner Captain doesn't suggest that they were, and the position of the pit lane speed limit relative to the blend line suggests that the exit was considered part of the race track, in which case the cars should filter in at that position. If Verstappen was not ahead of Enge at this point, he should have dropped behind him. I suggest that Verstappen was not a straggler, either, but part of the line forming up behind the SC, so the position is much as you would encounter while joining a motorway from the slip road where you expect to join between two cars.

This is where I may have been a little harsh on Jos, because if the regulations were not made clear to those who were meant to enforce them, then I can't assume that the drivers were aware of them. They're rarely aware when they're not changing in my experience!

So the assumption is that both the officials and the drivers may have been let down by the organisation, which is far from an unusual experience. Just a shame that once more the volunteer officials are assumed to be the villains.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Woolley

...Just a shame that once more the volunteer officials are assumed to be the villains.

Rather like Alonso at the weekend, but we won't go there....

I've worked pit exit lights once at Oulton, and it's far from easy. If the guys on post said Enge was ahead at the blend line, then the CoC has to go with their call. What is probably a bad call is black flagging Jos whilst the SC is still out. If only 1/2 a car was in it, you can't blame either driver for wanting to take the position can you? If it was called in immediately, then maybe the CoC could have simply instructed Jos via his team to drop behind Enge whilst they were still in the SC period? Would seem a fairer judgement IMHO, but that's hindsight for you

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by Woolley

But were the pits closed? At LMES Silverstone last year, the pit exit regulations changed by the half hour. Corner Captain doesn't suggest that they were, and the position of the pit lane speed limit relative to the blend line suggests that the exit was considered part of the race track, in which case the cars should filter in at that position. If Verstappen was not ahead of Enge at this point, he should have dropped behind him. I suggest that Verstappen was not a straggler, either, but part of the line forming up behind the SC, so the position is much as you would encounter while joining a motorway from the slip road where you expect to join between two cars.

I don't know whether the pits were actually closed at the time because I was up at the Corkscrew. But I do know that they were closing the pits every time the safety car went past the pit exit so if Jos wasn't a straggler, Tomas Enge shouldn't have been let out and we wouldn't have this issue. But in any case, if Enge was 1/2 a car ahead at the blend line - it was his position and Jos shouldn't have passed him.

It's probably true that they could have just ordered them to swap positions but, from what I hear, Jos made it worse by speeding in the pit lane.

PJ

[Heathcliff]

If only 1/2 a car was in it, you can't blame either driver for wanting to take the position can you? If it was called in immediately, then maybe the CoC could have simply instructed Jos via his team to drop behind Enge whilst they were still in the SC period?

I totally agree. Taking away someones chance on a third position in the championship over half a carlength, is not fair at all. The race-director could have been blamed for being simply too hard on his decission.

If the race-director is indeed fired, he might also be blamed for the fact that these regulations were not communicated to the marshalls and to the drivers. As cornercaptain already pointed out no A1-officials were present at the meetings of the marshalls. Probably the race-director should have managed this.

[Heathcliff]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

Jos made it worse by speeding in the pit lane.

Jos admitted his mistake, but this would simply not have happened if he didn't have to take his first drive-through (which was an overdo pennalty in my opinion).

[Asp]

A question we don't know is what Race Control did on hearing about the blend-line infringement, and how much further evidence (if any) they considered before issuing the penalty. Although, the opinion of a blend-line judge, without further evidence, should be given full weight (what's the point of having a judge if you're not going to!). So, if Jos broke the blend line rule, he should take the penalty. End of.

I think the confusion is if the rule should have actually applied or not though.
As I read it, the A1GP regs posted imply that if the SC was about, pitexit would be closed via a red light as the train passed - just like in F1. American racing works well without this, and working on the blend line principal.
If a blend line judge was appointed, then one must assume that the senior officials were expecting a blend-line rule to be operational. On this rule, if Jos was behind at the blend line, to then pass is overtaking under SC conditions. No argument there.
The question is, were the drivers expecting a blend-line rule? If not - what were they expecting if released on a green pitexit light and finding themselves "racing" a straggler up to the end of pitlane?

As regards the blue flag regulation - that would certainly only apply when the race wasn't neutralised. You can't show a driver a blue "get out the way" flag at the same time when overtaking isn't allowed!

[JABWOA]

The stationary blue (or light) at pit exit can be shown at any time (it's a safety issue, not passing/lapping issue).
Plus, I'd not be at all surprised if there is video footage to verify the passing (that may not have been televised) as that's the usual mode of opperation in Australia by Mr. Schenken. (Have had several reports submitted with no action taken due to no tv coverage or tv shows something different.)

[Cynic]

It seems to me that although there are undoubtedly some procedural questions to be answered here, the real issue is, yet again, drivers total apathy to safety car procedures. Consider:

Jos stated that he didn't see any yellow flags at turn two. This is probably total cobblers, but in any case the saftey car was out, and he must have been aware of this. Safety car = no overtaking. end of story.

If I understand cornercaptain correctly, the blend line signified the point at which the pit lane ended and the race track began, which was why a blend line judge was needed. In that case, Verstappen knew that that he was driving in a situation where overtaking was not allowed, but decided to take a chance and got caught out, before proceeding to blame everyone but himself.

It's maybe also worth pointing out that the blue flag does not mean "get out of the way", or "Let someone overtake you". That is a big misconception. The blue flag is a warning flag, indicating that a faster car is coming up behind you, so I can't see any logical reason as to why it should be needed under safety car conditions.

[Piglet]

Lots of good points coming out here.

Marshals don't enforce regulations, marshals report on what they see on the track and decisions about whether this contravenes regulations and the decision about what/whether any penalty should be applied are down to the Clerk of the Course.

The Clerk’s decision is made on the series regulations amended/backed up by any bulletins, team managers’ briefing notes and drivers briefing notes. Cornercaptain says they had been asked to appoint a blend line judge to report specific facts and this was done – I’m not sure why the organisers would need to have provided significantly more information in this particular circumstance? The judge is not going to impose a penalty, merely to report what he has seen which is what he did.

The Clerk then has to decide the penalty to apply – I’m not sure whether their reg’s cover this situation – certainly the reg’s quoted earlier don’t apply to this. I’d imagine that the normal reg’s don’t either as this type of thing is different at every circuit. This is likely to be something covered in a drivers/team managers briefing at the circuit – in this briefing the clerk will cover the individual quirks of the circuit – pit exit is usually something that is covered. In the briefings I’ve seen the clerk will often say “this is what will happen and this is what the penalty will be”, so at Donington – it’s often “if you overshoot the hairpin x many times y will happen”.
Given that the penalty applied was quite harsh I wonder if this was something that had been raised at the drivers briefing?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Cynic

. . .
It's maybe also worth pointing out that the blue flag does not mean "get out of the way", or "Let someone overtake you". That is a big misconception. The blue flag is a warning flag, indicating that a faster car is coming up behind you, so I can't see any logical reason as to why it should be needed under safety car conditions.

Not universally true. Depends on whose flag regulations they are running to. Note that F1 differs from FIA which differs from the UK's MSA rules.

Doubtless this is why the A1GP regulations contain some provisions about flag signals so that the organisers know (and the drivers, in theory ) exactly what rules apply regardless of which country they are in. Pity if they did not tell the hapless marshals who actually operate and report on these signals.

Regards

Jim

[ScotsBrutesFan]

One thing that I noticed and it may or may not be of relevance, is that the safety Car was picking up the field on the start/finish straight (turn 1 area) , not after the pitlane exit (between t2 and t3).

This I noticed caused the bunching of the cars to begin prior to and subsequently be at Safety car speeds before reaching the point where the pitlane exit road rejoined the track.

Does anyone think that this might have been a contributing factor to the confusion?

[Woolley]

I just wonder once again why everyone doesn't use the same SC regs and solve all of this confusion. In my opinion, Champ Car has it right, double stationary yellow at all posts means stop racing now and when you catch the SC, form up behind it. Simple. Why make it complicated?

[JABWOA]

In Australia, our blue flag is now a command flag. If shown, it tells the driver to move aside for a faster (lapping) vehicle. It used be a warning flag, look in your mirror and be prepared to overtaken by faster vehicle. However, the stationery blue at pit exit remains a warning flag only.

ALso, if a Judge of Fact declares something, then normally that is acted upon. Big responsability for the person doing the role.

I don't agree to one set of rules worldwide, as what's good for F1's is not good for a grassroots catagory. And the current theory is that trackside workers aren't able to handle multiple sets of flag rules (dunno about the drivers however...)

[Zandbak]

Team principal Jan Lammers admitted that Verstappen made a misjudgement about that first drive-through penalty. He also declared that he wasn't verry happy with the situation that Verstappen parked his car in the pitlane after the 2nd drive-through. Lammers also said that the "negative comments" in the Dutch press about Tim Schenken were wrong.

Here is the link (in dutch) http://www.f1today.nl/index.php?loca...&nieuwsid=5705 Translate it with: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Looks to me that Verstappen should make his excuses to Schenken, A1GP organisation and the local flaggers and corner workers.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

I don't agree to one set of rules worldwide, as what's good for F1's is not good for a grassroots catagory. And the current theory is that trackside workers aren't able to handle multiple sets of flag rules (dunno about the drivers however...)

I do agree, but not the FIA/F1 rules which are designed so that someone who's never used a flag can do a half-reasonable job:

"If it spins wave that one, if you're told to, wave that one, otherwise do what the post before you does." Complete rubbish.

SC, though is about safety, and Champ Car don't seem to have shunts when the Full course yellows come out. Over here, everything else does and far too often. I reckon if you've got something that works somewhere, copy it.

I really don't like the blue as an instruction, because what happens if it's waved in error? It only works if it's shown by instruction which is far from the best way of operating. V8s specifically request no blues anyway, as it's done electronically, I believe. However, we're wandering off topic, now.

[Hazza]

And while we're off topic i'll recount the story of an AMA race where a marshal threw out the red by mistake, which everyone ignored apart from the race leader who pulled off the track and stopped. Loosing the race through no fault of your own is one thing, but that?

Anyway, back on track (as it were), have they announced who's replacing Tim?

[Suze]

I don't think we're sure he's actually gone...?