10 Best Tourer Drivers - some logic

[deeks6]

Here's another good argument starter. F1 magazine did a Top 10 All round GP drivers based on certain criteria...thought it would be a good idea to do one for Aussie Tourer racers. I listed 13 most appropriate (you can probably argue but you'd need a good case) with the only proviso being that they had to have won a title, so sorry Murphy, Perkins and Ingall fans. I've rated them (out of 10)for A)results/consistency, B)race craft (passing etc), C)technical (feedback and car setup), D)qualifying and E)sportsmanship (this is just as important as anything else in my opinion).
I just did these with no bias, so you can argue all you like...here are the results:
A B C D E
1 Dick Johnson 9 8.5 9.5 8.5 10 45.5
2 Mark Skaife 9 8.5 9 9 9 44.5
3 Ian Geoghegan 9 8.5 9 9 9 44.5
4 Jim Richards 9 9 8.5 8 9.5 44
5 Peter Brock 9 9.5 7 8.5 10 44
6 Craig Lowndes 8.5 9.5 6.5 9.5 9.5 43.5
7 Marcos Ambrose 8 8 8.5 9.5 9 43
8 Alan Moffat 8.5 8.5 9 9 7 42
9 Norm Beechey 7 8.5 8 8 9 40.5
10 Bob Jane 8 9 8 8.5 7 40.5
11 Glenn Seton 7 7.5 8 7 9 38.5
12 John Bowe 6.5 8 8.5 7.5 8 38.5
13 Colin Bond 6 7.5 8.5 6.5 9 37.5

Comments anyone? Wild disagreements?

[rdmdog]

Maybe its a typo, but you have given Dick a 10 for sportsmanship whilst Lowndes only gets a 9.5 and Marcus only a 9? WHAT THE?

It could also be argued that half of your roll of honour didnt quite have the same competition as the more recent championship winners:confused:

[Matt H]

i sure as hell hope you dont include sporttsmanship to include the way the driver treats the fans, if so, skaife drops to a 2, lowndes seton and ambrose all upgraded to 10.

cheers

[deeks6]

Originally posted by rdmdog
Maybe its a typo, but you have given Dick a 10 for sportsmanship whilst Lowndes only gets a 9.5 and Marcus only a 9? WHAT THE?

It could also be argued that half of your roll of honour didnt quite have the same competition as the more recent championship winners:confused:

DJ and Brockie are the cleanest 2 racers ever seen in Australia IMO. Tough, hard racers but rarely even a scratch on the opposite car. Someone will probably correct me but I cannot recall either of them hitting another car, let alone punting them.

Anyone who ever witnessed early touring car racing with Pete G, Beechey, Jane, Brian Thomson, Jim Richards, John McCormack, Moffat, Harvey, Brock, Bond, Morris, McKeown, Foley, Muir, Gibson etc. etc. and says the competition wasnt up to scratch simply was not there. Most of todays drivers would be too scared to drive the cars they drove then (big HP, no downforce, questionable brakes, **** tyres etc). And I'm not knocking todays drivers...

[pigsy]

Interesting comparison deeks6. I always thought that DJ deserved more credit than he ever got.

[Wrighty05]

I think you've rated Dick to highly on technical feedback and sportsmanship. Dick was generally clean but did involve himself in a few incidents over the years.

[Joe5619]

Having BOB JANE in the top ten is laugh-able... Specially considering Seto, Bowe & Bond are out of the top ten!!!!

[The Hrt Kid]

I reckon Brockie needs to be higher then that, johnson needs to slip down a few places, looks like you have only ranked ambrose on recent form. Maybe canedates should have a certain amount of time to be in touring cars before they qualify. And as big as a brockie fan i am didnt a red monaro punt a bmw off this year at bathurst?

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by The Hrt Kid
didnt a red monaro punt a bmw off this year at bathurst?

I don't think that counts as it may have been another of the drivers at the time.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by pigsy
Interesting comparison deeks6. I always thought that DJ deserved more credit than he ever got.

Certainly were a few Bathursts that got away

[Mattracer]

deeks6,

Why'd you leave out drivers without a title? Some of the best and most consistent front runners are yet to take the Championship and would likely outscore some of the drivers you mention.

[Morris 1100]

Why do we bother with these magazine style top 10/top 100 polls? What do they prove?
All they do is cause fights and fill the forum with the same rubbish over and over.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Joe5619
Having BOB JANE in the top ten is laugh-able... Specially considering Seto, Bowe & Bond are out of the top ten!!!!

Actually, you are right...if we combine all the championships and Bathursts won by the 3 of them put together it equals Bob Jane. Silly me.
Seriously, please do some research before making such a comment on a true Aussie legend.

Also, you appear to have missed the point of the exercise (all-round). Personally, I think Brock and Lowndes are the most talented (Aussie tourer) drivers I've ever seen...they can make slow cars look fast, but they are technically deficient compared to the others.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by Morris 1100
Why do we bother with these magazine style top 10/top 100 polls? What do they prove?
All they do is cause fights and fill the forum with the same rubbish over and over.

You're reading it aren't ya

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by deeks6
.they can make slow cars look fast, but they are technically deficient compared to the others.

That may be true but it might explain why Brock struggled to win a race for the last 6 or 7 years of his career and Lowndes hasn't done much better.

"Looks" can be deceiving. They do ooze ability though.

[Wrighty05]

Originally posted by Mattracer
[B]That may be true but it might explain why Brock struggled to win a race for the last 6 or 7 years of his career

Brock won 10 races in his last 4 years and finshed on the podium 22 times in his last 4 ATCC's.

I think the area of technical (feedback and car setup) is one that needs work.

You can't have Dick higher than Moffat, Brock, Skaife or Richards for that.

Dick also struggled to race as competitively in differing conditions ie. bad weather. However this isn't a catergory.

[racer69]

How did Johnson get a 9 for consistency?

He contested the ATCC full-time from 1981-1999. In 19 years, he won 5 titles, but out of the other 14 years, was only in the hunt for the championship once (1990). He wasn't in the hunt in any of the other years, and after the third race of 1990, didn't win a round again.

[Grimace]

Originally posted by deeks6
DJ and Brockie are the cleanest 2 racers ever seen in Australia IMO. Tough, hard racers but rarely even a scratch on the opposite car. Someone will probably correct me but I cannot recall either of them hitting another car, let alone punting them.

Anyone who ever witnessed early touring car racing with Pete G, Beechey, Jane, Brian Thomson, Jim Richards, John McCormack, Moffat, Harvey, Brock, Bond, Morris, McKeown, Foley, Muir, Gibson etc. etc. and says the competition wasnt up to scratch simply was not there. Most of todays drivers would be too scared to drive the cars they drove then (big HP, no downforce, questionable brakes, **** tyres etc). And I'm not knocking todays drivers...

Deeks is right!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im plenty old enough to see those guys race, the big HP, no brakes to speak of, lousy tyres, no decent downforce (real spoilers)really showed how good these guys were and Pete was one of the really top touring drivers.

I shook his hand at Bathurst (and he grinned that grin) and he has gone just a few months later.

the speed that guy travelled down Conrod in those Fords lacking proper aerodynamics...pedal to the metal over "the hump" took real courage.

A supercar with windtunnel aerodynamics, big brakes and tyres make it so much easier.

You young guys-- NEVER forget the ability of those 70s racers!

[deeks6]

Originally posted by racer69
How did Johnson get a 9 for consistency?

He contested the ATCC full-time from 1981-1999. In 19 years, he won 5 titles, but out of the other 14 years, was only in the hunt for the championship once (1990). He wasn't in the hunt in any of the other years, and after the third race of 1990, didn't win a round again.

If my football team won 5 flags in 19 years, I'd be mighty happy about it...Peter Perfect won 3 in about 25 and I still reckon he's pretty good too.
I'd have to check the records, but up until the AU days, I reckon Dick won at least one race every year and I'm pretty sure he was in the hunt more than once. I'm not sure if there are too many others who could boast that

[rdmdog]

Originally posted by deeks6
......the competition wasnt up to scratch simply was not there. Most of todays drivers would be too scared to drive the cars they drove then (big HP, no downforce, questionable brakes, **** tyres etc). And I'm not knocking todays drivers...

I never said these guys werent legends or incredably brave (or NUTS!) what I meant was that in almost every case they were able to import or build a monster of a car to beat the last winner therefore these guys should probably score extra points in the engineering scale too.

These guys werent hamstrung by rules trying to keep the cars even, and the 15 you have listed were spread over 20 plus years. There would be 15 drivers who would not have surprisingly ended up on the podium at any round this year!

I was only ten at the time but I do remember a HDT Commodore and a CDT Gemini having a coming together at Bathurst in '82/'83 (after a legal battle over the similar logos), but dosent sportsmanship extend past the racetrack?????

[Wrighty05]

Originally posted by deeks6
I'd have to check the records, but up until the AU days, I reckon Dick won at least one race every year and I'm pretty sure he was in the hunt more than once. I'm not sure if there are too many others who could boast that

This is Dick's record (race wins) in the ATCC in the following years.

1993 2
1994 1
1995 1
1996 0
1997 0
1998 0
1999 0

1999 was the only year he raced the AU.

[Wrighty05]

Originally posted by rdmdog

I was only ten at the time but I do remember a HDT Commodore and a CDT Gemini having a coming together at Bathurst in '82/'83 (after a legal battle over the similar logos), but dosent sportsmanship extend past the racetrack?????

It also doesn't help when the bloke being lapped doesn't check his mirrors

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Wrighty05
This is Dick's record (race wins) in the ATCC in the following years.

1993 2
1994 1
1995 1
1996 0
1997 0
1998 0
1999 0

1999 was the only year he raced the AU.

Hells Bells, man, he was well in his 50's racing in the toughest category those last few years (and still was'nt a mobile chicane like Seton, Jones and a few others are now). Isnt the purpose of the exercise to compare them all at their best for the given criteria?

Apart from that freak Jim Richards, there are not going to be too many drivers competitive at that age. Do you think Lowndes and Murph and Devil will be making shootouts at 55?

[rdmdog]

Originally posted by deeks6
Hells Bells, man, he was well in his 50's racing in the toughest category those last few years (and still was'nt a mobile chicane like Seton, Jones and a few others are now).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt Brock leading three of the last four races he contested before "retiring" the first time? The car letting him down at his last Bathurst (Thanks Skaife) with HRT, a tyre at Oran, car at 2lt Bathurst......

[deeks6]

Originally posted by rdmdog
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt Brock leading three of the last four races he contested before "retiring" the first time? The car letting him down at his last Bathurst (Thanks Skaife) with HRT, a tyre at Oran, car at 2lt Bathurst......

I think you're getting a little off thread here...doubt whether anyone (certainly not me) is going to argue that PB was'nt an extraordinary driver and, even now, can still steer a bit.
The object of the exercise was to try to rate these drivers for their abilities in every aspect of motor sport which is probably more important now than ever. Like I said, I did this without contriving anything, merely interested to see the results.
What I found interesting (even though it is subjective on my behalf) is that the top 3 on the list just happened to win 5 titles each and the 4th driver won 4. The ratings probably show why...
Winning titles is about being consistent, kind to the machinery and up for every challenge and Johnson and Skaife have done that - PB won "only" 3 titles over a longer period than both of them. Its all very well to get yourself up for a big one every year (Bathurst) but its a lot harder to maintain momentum over a full season. Thats why (and rightfully so), the drivers place far more importance on winning a title. Moffat in the 70s and Johnson in the 80s had better championship records than Brock. Beechey probably had more fans in the 60s but Pete won the titles. The Ford fans now (of which I am one) hate Skaife with a passion but you simply cannot argue with the guy's record.
Anyway, its one way of making a comparison...if you've got a different way, lets have a look at that too.