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Old 22 Oct 2020, 20:02 (Ref:4012028)   #1
Bcarr6
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DTM 2021

Look, I know it's not easy, but we just have to accept that for the next few years DTM is a GT series, even if it wasn't really a touring car series anyway, now its definitely GT.

So, 2021, GT Pro (GT3 Plus, which is GT3 with stickers on), rolling starts, same old sprint format, presumably still single driver, pit for tires, manufacturer support likely through engineering and driver placement.

In a lot of ways this feels like an all pro version of the old PWC format.

Apparently Audi are very firmly there with 4 or so R8's. BMW are committed but only for the new M4 later in the season, unless customers want to take the very old M6. Mercedes are expected to be there too. Aston Martin & Mclaren are also supposedly in conversation.

I guess you if the customers present themselves then Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, Bentley, and to a lesser extent, Honda & Lexus might also be viable. Although I guess that depends if there is an IMSA-esque manufacturer fee.

Itd be cool if all manufacturers could enter 4 cars, needing only 5 manufacturers to pass the 20 car count, but that might be dreaming in covid.


Anyway, interesting to keep track. Its also worth considering that this might knock ADAC GT Masters a little off its axis, although that is more PRo-Am, and it might impact GTWC & GT Open a little too.

Interesting dynamics
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Old 22 Oct 2020, 20:06 (Ref:4012030)   #2
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I thought the GT3 plus cars we’re supposed to have more power and aero
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Old 22 Oct 2020, 20:58 (Ref:4012045)   #3
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I thought the GT3 plus cars we’re supposed to have more power and aero

I think the shift to calling it GT Pro is probably a sign they are pulling back from any real upgrades to GT3
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Old 22 Oct 2020, 21:56 (Ref:4012056)   #4
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Some days ago read about bmw and audi pushing to change the actual sport regs to have rolling starting instead of the usual standing one, because apparently an over half million of € gt3 car may easily break clutch if starting from standstill lol

since it's a sprint race format, think that R8 and M6 will just get some extra hp and nothing more, nothing really "plus" actually, considering that there will be hankook tyres to slow them down... don't forget also that to balance an aero focused MR mid torque/high rev <4.5m long car and an old heavy FR high torque/low rev and about 5m long car will be everything but easy.... this "new" dtm is basically like beating a dead horse, with the horse asking for more beating...

even name is wrong since should be named dgtm....
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Old 25 Oct 2020, 19:22 (Ref:4012963)   #5
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I believe there can be some changes to these cars, presumably with attention to increasing the power of the engines and scrapping driving aids. That seems like a doable thing not requiring millions of euros.

When it comes to teams, I believe Audi will have even more than four cars (ie more than two teams) and I wonder whether any of the ADAC GT teams will enter (teams such as Rutronik, Land etc). I believe we can count on Abt, Phoenix, WRT, maybe Rosberg.
When it comes to BMW, I can imagine Rowe from the very first race with M6, there were some rumours about Walkenhorst as well. Hopefully there'll be a brand variety and more than 20 cars. For me enough to make it much more appealing than GT Masters. ADAC may have the 'International' status but the numbers are incomparable. DTM is a brand much bigger than ADAC GT.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:08 (Ref:4013289)   #6
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DTM’s traditional standing starts will be eliminated when it transitions to GT3-based machinery next year, while ABS and traction control are set to be retained on the cars.
https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...d-in-gt3-cars/

So it will be just another identical GT3 bop series to any of the other million clone GT3 championships, Berger must be thrilled about the progress
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:17 (Ref:4013291)   #7
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Loss of proper touring cars aside, I do think the DTM 2021 is going to be an interesting prospect.

Im interested to see how single driver races work for the GT3 format. Thats now the only main differentiator between that and GTWC sprint, which also has substantial GT3 pro grids, similar length races, rolling starts, etc.

I wonder how concerned the SRO are by this new DTM formula, and whether their distinct push back towards Am drivers during their Spa weekend press conference is in any way related.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:36 (Ref:4013293)   #8
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
Loss of proper touring cars aside, I do think the DTM 2021 is going to be an interesting prospect.

Im interested to see how single driver races work for the GT3 format. Thats now the only main differentiator between that and GTWC sprint, which also has substantial GT3 pro grids, similar length races, rolling starts, etc.

I wonder how concerned the SRO are by this new DTM formula, and whether their distinct push back towards Am drivers during their Spa weekend press conference is in any way related.
nothing new actually, pirelli world challenge did it already long time ago
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:40 (Ref:4013294)   #9
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DTM’s traditional standing starts will be eliminated when it transitions to GT3-based machinery next year, while ABS and traction control are set to be retained on the cars.
https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...d-in-gt3-cars/

So it will be just another identical GT3 bop series to any of the other million clone GT3 championships, Berger must be thrilled about the progress
honestly, everything else about 2021 dtm aside, it's just me who find sadly ridiculous the fact that gt3 cars can deal much better a 24hours long race than a standing start?
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:54 (Ref:4013296)   #10
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
Loss of proper touring cars aside, I do think the DTM 2021 is going to be an interesting prospect.

Im interested to see how single driver races work for the GT3 format. Thats now the only main differentiator between that and GTWC sprint, which also has substantial GT3 pro grids, similar length races, rolling starts, etc.

I wonder how concerned the SRO are by this new DTM formula, and whether their distinct push back towards Am drivers during their Spa weekend press conference is in any way related.
2021 will be the first year I will ever watch this series. The series most in danger of being raided I would think is ADAC GT Masters rather than GT WC. Which I hope is the case. I never really got into GT Masters. I much preferred GT WC, Intl GT Open, and IMSA GTD.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 23:53 (Ref:4013305)   #11
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Originally Posted by WyldStallion View Post
2021 will be the first year I will ever watch this series. The series most in danger of being raided I would think is ADAC GT Masters rather than GT WC. Which I hope is the case. I never really got into GT Masters. I much preferred GT WC, Intl GT Open, and IMSA GTD.
I think the ecosystem of GT3 in Europe can potentially get unsettled with this move, there's certainly room for all but depends on how everyone shifts to accommodate it.

My ideal scenario would be:

Continental Professional Series

DTM - GT3 Pro single driver sprint races

GTWC - GT3 Pro and Pro-Am multi driver sprint and endurance races


Continental Alternative Series

GT Open - GT3, GTC, GT4 combined sprint races (GT Open is always the Outlier for folks who dont want to go SRO racing that particular year, and I dont think thats a bad thing, some competition and some Michelin tires isnt a bad thing)

National Pro-Aml Series

British GT / Italian GT / ADAC GT - GT3 & GT4 combined sprint + 2-3hr endurance races, with mandated Pro-Am driver combinations


Yes I get that is potentially a hierarchal drop for GT Masters, but for whatever reason, Im drawn more to British GT and Italian GT with its mixed grids over GT Masters with its GT3 only racing even with its mega grid, its just like seeing a slight variant on GTWC, and SRO do that better in my opinion.

ADAC GT, and DTM will both have a german based GT3 and GT4 series from 2021, and I dont think thats entirely sustainable, especially when you add NLS into the mix.

It seems logical that ADAC GT's GT3/GT4 grids might lose a little to the DTM package if it carries on with its higher production and following.

But that leaves a nice opportunity for ADAC GT to run some fun large combined GT3/GT4 grids.

Just my two cents, I imagine plenty here would and will disagree! Nothing wrong with that!
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Old 27 Oct 2020, 00:40 (Ref:4013308)   #12
WyldStallion
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
I think the ecosystem of GT3 in Europe can potentially get unsettled with this move, there's certainly room for all but depends on how everyone shifts to accommodate it.

My ideal scenario would be:

Continental Professional Series

DTM - GT3 Pro single driver sprint races

GTWC - GT3 Pro and Pro-Am multi driver sprint and endurance races


Continental Alternative Series

GT Open - GT3, GTC, GT4 combined sprint races (GT Open is always the Outlier for folks who dont want to go SRO racing that particular year, and I dont think thats a bad thing, some competition and some Michelin tires isnt a bad thing)

National Pro-Aml Series

British GT / Italian GT / ADAC GT - GT3 & GT4 combined sprint + 2-3hr endurance races, with mandated Pro-Am driver combinations


Yes I get that is potentially a hierarchal drop for GT Masters, but for whatever reason, Im drawn more to British GT and Italian GT with its mixed grids over GT Masters with its GT3 only racing even with its mega grid, its just like seeing a slight variant on GTWC, and SRO do that better in my opinion.

ADAC GT, and DTM will both have a german based GT3 and GT4 series from 2021, and I dont think thats entirely sustainable, especially when you add NLS into the mix.

It seems logical that ADAC GT's GT3/GT4 grids might lose a little to the DTM package if it carries on with its higher production and following.

But that leaves a nice opportunity for ADAC GT to run some fun large combined GT3/GT4 grids.

Just my two cents, I imagine plenty here would and will disagree! Nothing wrong with that!

I think you are spot on. And I did forget to mention NLS/Nürburgring. I like them a lot too. So yeah ADAC I think is in for a fall. Too bad for them. But its of little loss to us GT fans in the grand scheme of things.

Biggest things GT racing specifically needs for next year to set up for a good next half decade is: GTE/GT3 convergence, SRO to get rid of their current safety car procedures, and new DTM format to impress
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 09:04 (Ref:4014016)   #13
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Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
Hopefully there'll be a brand variety and more than 20 cars. For me enough to make it much more appealing than GT Masters. ADAC may have the 'International' status but the numbers are incomparable. DTM is a brand much bigger than ADAC GT.
DTM as a brand is bigger in the world because of the old days when it was actually good and had awesome relatable cars going door handle to door handle over jumps on the Nordschleife.

GT Masters already has decent variety and 20+ cars, with some of the best GT drivers in the world, plus they have English streams you can watch for free on YouTube.

I don't see how doing basically the same thing that is already being done, but slapping the DTM name on it will somehow make it a superior product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyldStallion View Post
2021 will be the first year I will ever watch this series. The series most in danger of being raided I would think is ADAC GT Masters rather than GT WC. Which I hope is the case. I never really got into GT Masters. I much preferred GT WC, Intl GT Open, and IMSA GTD.
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Originally Posted by WyldStallion View Post
I think you are spot on. And I did forget to mention NLS/Nürburgring. I like them a lot too. So yeah ADAC I think is in for a fall. Too bad for them. But its of little loss to us GT fans in the grand scheme of things.

Biggest things GT racing specifically needs for next year to set up for a good next half decade is: GTE/GT3 convergence, SRO to get rid of their current safety car procedures, and new DTM format to impress

How silly. "I never liked this German national GT3 sprint series for some reason, so it's not important and I hope it falls so that a German national GT3 sprint series can grow."
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 09:58 (Ref:4014022)   #14
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I think you are spot on. And I did forget to mention NLS/Nürburgring. I like them a lot too. So yeah ADAC I think is in for a fall. Too bad for them. But its of little loss to us GT fans in the grand scheme of things.
Little loss? Hardly.

This GT fan would be sad to see ADAC fall. ADAC is one of the strongest and hard fought national GT series. It will suffer from DTM turning to GT3 and that’s a shame as GT3 will probably be just another phase for DTM whereas it’s the backbone of ADAC.

I’m guessing ADAC will go back to it’s more Pro Am
beginnings whereas these days it largely Pro.

If you want to see DTM drivers battling in GT3 then it’s already happened in VLN/ADAC/Blancpain for some years.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 10:55 (Ref:4014032)   #15
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Why are people surprised about GT3 cars not doing standing starts? They aren't designed to do it. SRO series don't do it. Are we surprised F1 cars don't work in snow? Or Dragsters can't go around corners?

GT Masters is a fantastic series. If I had to pick a series to survive out of DTM and GT Masters, it'd be GT Masters every single time.
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