Proposed Pre90 FF1600 Pilot Series

[FA73]

Hi Everyone,

I am Membership Secretary of the Classic FF1600 Register but to assist the club I am writing on behalf of the whole Committee. The following announcement is partly the result of us considering the replies to the thread "Potential Change in Classic Formula Ford cut off date". It is also the result of debate within the club and some inital approaches to the BARC.

What we would like to propose is this. A Pilot Invitation Series of a minimum of 2 but possibly up to 4 races for Pre 1990 FF1600 to be run as seperate races alongside the existing Classic FF1600 and FF2000 races at selected BARC events next year (the Classic FF2000 and FF1600 are always at the same meetings).

The race series will however specifically exclude the 1987/88/89 Reynard Chassis as there seems to be a feeling that these cars represent a notable step forward in performance over other cars of the 1982-89 period and that they would therefore be too dominant over other chassis. This type of approach is not so unusual as Classic F3 exclude the Ralt RT3 and Historic FF2000 exclude the Van Diemen RF81 for the same reason. The intention is to give Drivers of other chassis from the 1980's period an opportunity to achieve success.

Please note that the rules, regulations, class structure and cut-off dates of the established Classic FF1600 series will remain completely unaltered. Class A - Pre 1982 Class B - Pre 74. The Pilot series is intended to see if there is an opportunity to create a new national series for FF1600 Drivers with later 1980's cars and to expand and strengthen our club at the same time.

The rules of the new series would include the same minimum weight rules as in the Classic FF1600 series. These require the minimum weight of the car to be 420kg and with the Driver included 500kg.This is in line with several other FF1600 series across the UK.

The BARC are prepared to work with us to make this happen if we can get at least 12 Drivers of suitable cars to register their intent with us to run in the series by joining the Club as Associate Members (Pre90) for a fee of £25.

Please note that if the series fails to take off we will return all fees. We have already had 5 serious expressions of interest from owners of suitable cars. Anyone else should please visit our website www.classicformulaford.com and contact the Club Co-Ordinator Peter Hackett via email (there is a "Contact Us" button on the web site homepage).

Our 2011 Calender has not been fixed yet but we will endeavour to ensure that the Pilot Series races are run at the most attractive meetings possible within the 2011 Classic FF1600/FF2000 Calender.

AutoSport and Motorsport News will also be contacted to assist in the publicity.

Regards


Andrew Smith

[diz]

Originally Posted by FA73

The race series will however specifically exclude the 1987/88/89 Reynard Chassis as there seems to be a feeling that these cars represent a notable step forward in performance over other cars of the 1982-89 period and that they would therefore be too dominant over other chassis.

Andrew

Might I suggest you go for Pre88 and not Pre90

VD 89s' are just as likely to win in BRSCC Northern Pre90 as Reynards and often do so. Mind you, Reynard 84 and Van Diemen RF86 have also won outright in Pre90

If anybody decided to run an 88 or 89 Mondiale in either Northern, or your proposaed series, they would be winners, likely or not. So you would need to excluder 88 and 89 Mondiales, Van Diemens and Reynards. Where would the exclusions stop.

It is - without exception - wrong to run a "dated" class structure, but exclude certain chassis. Perhaps this was why the non dated Formula E concept was so successful.

If it helps, I am most likely going to be running a race meeting at Anglesey in March 2011 and would happily put on a Pre88 race with your existing two classes and an invitation class for 82-87 cars.
BARC members would be welcome, or toe in the water - none BARC - members could run for a nominal £10 club fee.

So what are peoples thoughts on this?

[MarkG]

I agree with diz really.
I'd like to see Formula E back. Maybe there's a need for a "Classic 80's" Series, but those cars would destroy "Formula E type cars, taking equal driver abilities into consideration. I'd bet money I'd pedal an RF86 say, quicker than my recently aquired PRS.

[barnettracing]

Surely though if you excluded cars from 1988/89 you would miss out on a large proportion of competitors when you look at how many Van Diemen RF88/89's and Reynard FF89's there are competing at Combe and Oulton.

Last year when I did a one off meeting at Combe my fastest lap was a 1m13.7s (in a RF88). This year Kyle Tilley managed to do a 1m13.1s in an RF87. Likewise Andrew Xavier is just as quick in his RF87 as cars from 1988/89.

I personally don't see that there is a big enough difference between Van Diemen RF86-89s and Reynard FF84-89s in terms of speed. Driven well, these cars will all be running at the front.

[barnettracing]

On a complimentary note, as long as the calendar didn't clash with any major FF1600 races (CoB etc) then I would register to enter in my RF88 for a few races (bank balance allowing).

[pd88]

It's great to see the Pre-90 series coming back; the original BRSCC run pre 90 championship seemed to be successful in its day.

The North West pre-90 championship and CFFC works very well, which includes Reynard’s and other 88/89 cars; why mess with a proven formula?

All you need to do is expand the range of circuits and I would imagine you’ll have a positive turn out

[dhart]

[QUOTE=diz;2795858]Andrew

Might I suggest you go for Pre88 and not Pre90

VD 89s' are just as likely to win in BRSCC Northern Pre90 as Reynards and often do so. Mind you, Reynard 84 and Van Diemen RF86 have also won outright in Pre90

If anybody decided to run an 88 or 89 Mondiale in either Northern, or your proposaed series, they would be winners, likely or not. So you would need to excluder 88 and 89 Mondiales, Van Diemens and Reynards. Where would the exclusions stop.

Think anyone involved with this should listen up to Ian , ie somebody that knows what tyey are talking about. Pre 87 INMHO is the most sensible cut off, but pre 90 would be fine.

Excluding any car for being too quick would as Ian says mean most cars would qualify to be excluded and is an opinion of some badly informed people with i suspect a worry about car values, and a fear of no being able to keep up!

A few examples..... would you ban the Laser because the late great Pete Rodgers made it work, (finishing 3rd in the 86 festival) maybe ban the 84 to 89 Mondiales that Mc Gall made fly or the Don Hardman 86 Van Diemen that Nigel Greensal blew the entire Oulton grid away with, Maybe the Crossle 25F that Peacock scared the sh!t out of the works VD in 86 , or the similar car that my late friend Roger Eccleston used to scare the sh!t out of everybody!!!

But maybe you are looking at the wrong end of the grid. it surprises me that a lot of the classic field pass scrutiny , they then toss around at the back doing times that shouldnt allow them to qualify with any SENSIBLE % rule, then blame the era of car!!! make that end of the grid up its game, QUALITY will improve the grid NOT petty rules.

The cars you are planning to ban (87 TO 89 Reynard) won 1 of the 12 major FF championships (senior and junior titles) between 87 and 89... Van diemen won 11 !!!! banning the Reynard over the VD is an insult to Ralph ,Puddy etc etc and shows a complete lack of understanding and respect about the formula.

I think the sterotypical classic racers next time at the country club should prehaps pull their fingers out and learn some FF history, prehaps they will then understand a formula they are clearly not qualified to organise.

Yes surprise!! i do have a vested interest, my workshop/customers currently have 3x 84 reynards, 1 RP26 , 1 25F A 93 Swift and a 06 Ray and NONE of them will be run in a series that bans any specific car, ... ive got the keys!

Dave Hart

[diz]

Originally Posted by pd88

It's great to see the Pre-90 series coming back; the original BRSCC run pre 90 championship seemed to be successful in its day.

The North West pre-90 championship and CFFC works very well, which includes Reynard’s and other 88/89 cars; why mess with a proven formula?

All you need to do is expand the range of circuits and I would imagine you’ll have a positive turn out

If you allowed in the 88 and 89s' it would just scare off the majority of potential Pre88s' as they would just believe that their older cars wouldn't stand a chance.
This is apparent from some of the replies in this thread depending on the age of car the poster either already has, or is considering getting.

This is the problem, whatever age of car. The majority of drivers see having an older car as a ready made excuse to "not do well". There aren't as many drivers out there as you would think who would relish he challenge of "working it up them" in an older car.

A solution to satisfy everybody would be to run a separate class for every year Formula Fords have been manufactured.. Imagine a trophy table with 44 class winners trophies on it. Everybody could go home happy.

It is possibly worth listening to my views, as I've been there and done it twice. Not only did Richard Peacock and I come up with Formula E for 1985, we also started Pre83 FF2000 by running a pilot race at Oulton in - I think it was - 1987. We got about 28 entries and the National FF2000 championship at the same meeting got about 20. Pre83 was the correct split, but BARC took the concept on and ran the championship for Pre80, which then got it's own class a few years later when - surprise, surprise - BARC went Pre83

[jimmyRF87]

Awesome news!

Hopefully next season will be a more productive one for me in terms of racing and so will hopefully be able to enter at least one of the races, the ones most south anyway (ie brands, silverstone, combe, thruxton would be ideal ;-)). Be great if this takes off and proves popular as I'm sure it will.

[pd88]

Originally Posted by diz

If you allowed in the 88 and 89s' it would just scare off the majority of potential Pre88s' as they would just believe that their older cars wouldn't stand a chance.
This is apparent from some of the replies in this thread depending on the age of car the poster either already has, or is considering getting.

This is the problem, whatever age of car. The majority of drivers see having an older car as a ready made excuse to "not do well". There aren't as many drivers out there as you would think who would relish he challenge of "working it up them" in an older car.

A solution to satisfy everybody would be to run a separate class for every year Formula Fords have been manufactured.. Imagine a trophy table with 44 class winners trophies on it. Everybody could go home happy.

It is possibly worth listening to my views, as I've been there and done it twice. Not only did Richard Peacock and I come up with Formula E for 1985, we also started Pre83 FF2000 by running a pilot race at Oulton in - I think it was - 1987. We got about 28 entries and the National FF2000 championship at the same meeting got about 20. Pre83 was the correct split, but BARC took the concept on and ran the championship for Pre80, which then got it's own class a few years later when - surprise, surprise - BARC went Pre83

I also raced in Formula E; it was a great championship. Mike Gardner ran my Crossle 32F, which was an awesome car (wish I still had it); he often jumped in it and went a second or so faster than me; my point is as always, it’s down to the driver not the year the car was produced.

I’m sure I have seen Reynard FF84’s wining outright in the NW Pre 90 races; also Ben de Zille Butler made the 2009 Festival final in a Lola 642E; in both cases, I would imagine these cars are very well prepared and set up; unlike some of the cars I see competing

[MarkG]

Actually, the current Classic FF series is effectively Formula E, and has, I suppose, a better identity with the name, so I don't know why I have been saying what I have Maybe it was concern that it would be spoilt with newer cars included.
However, I DO agree that a series for 80's cars is needed, AS LONG AS there are drivers and cars out there to make it happen. I was tempted a short while ago to buy an RF86 or RF89 and then go racing at Oulton next year, but I thought I'd maybe get fed up with having to go so far all the time, and as there was an established Classic series, I decided to buy the PRS and see how it would fare against the Van Diemens. If, at the time, there was an established Classic 80's type series, things may have been different. I do wonder though if the intended Pre'90 series may be stymied by low numbers, ie. only owners of "fancied" cars will join in , with maybe one or two stalwarts with uncompetitive chassis. If it HAS to be that 80's cars eventually end up as another class in the Classic series, then so be it. It is guaranteed that not everyone will be pleased with what transpires, so we'll just have to make the best of it, and all be mindful it's just club racing and fun, no professional team is going to snap up the monied jockey in a superior car that blitzes everyone

[FA73]

Crumbs - quite a response !!

Just to be clear, and on a purely personal note. I posted the idea for the club but did not make the rules up by myself !!.

I race a 1973 Van Diemen against cars up to 1981 and try to go fast enough to beat them all rather than just driving for Class B points. This sometimes lands me in the &*%*% but it does hopefully mean I know a bit about racing newer machinery.

(No excuses being made here - I accept the difference between the cars is very small - and I am lucky enough to have a fantastic car !!).

My car misses the HSCC FF1600 cut-off by about a year so I also know a bit about the effect of date rules on values !!

No offence was intended to anyone by the original post.

Thanks
Andrew Smith.

[MrGoldenEra]

Wow, some strong feelings out there!

Great newsthough, I will definately be out there in my 87VD. Now for the prep, original livery or my own, hmm...

Looking forward to it already!

[SAMD]

I would have prefered pre '87 and pre '90. But overall this has to be a good thing. And I think the Reynard thing is quite reasonable especially with the clubman. The RF89 is probably the fastest pre '90 chassis but its twitchy and the Reynards are easier to drive.

[pd88]

Originally Posted by FA73

Crumbs - quite a response !!

Just to be clear, and on a purely personal note. I posted the idea for the club but did not make the rules up by myself !!.

I race a 1973 Van Diemen against cars up to 1981 and try to go fast enough to beat them all rather than just driving for Class B points. This sometimes lands me in the &*%*% but it does hopefully mean I know a bit about racing newer machinery.

(No excuses being made here - I accept the difference between the cars is very small - and I am lucky enough to have a fantastic car !!).

My car misses the HSCC FF1600 cut-off by about a year so I also know a bit about the effect of date rules on values !!

No offence was intended to anyone by the original post.

Thanks
Andrew Smith.

Andrew,

I’m interested in the concept; but only if 88/89 Reynard’s are included; therefore, can you please point me to the appropriate person who has the regulations for the proposed series?

I guess we’re wasting time posting views on here unless our comments are seen by someone with the authority to make a decision about what happens.

[diz]

Originally Posted by pd88

I also raced in Formula E; it was a great championship. Mike Gardner ran my Crossle 32F, which was an awesome car (wish I still had it); he often jumped in it and went a second or so faster than me; my point is as always, it’s down to the driver not the year the car was produced.

Hi Paul.
Are you sure it was only a second

[daktari doc]

gentlemen, please dont get so hot under the collar about cut offs, dates and exclusions, surely we should derive pleasure at the fact that someone is having the gumption to organise a class which will enable these 80's cars to drive.

May i just say a big thank you to Dulon for the fansinating insight into the CFFC, sounds alot of fun, and as soon as funds become available i shall become one of these novice people at the back of the grid !! %'s acheived or not.

[FA73]

Hello PD88

The whole Classic FF1600 Committee are paying close attention to this thread trust me !!

Can I ask you to approach our Club Co-ordinator Pete Hackett ? - if you go to this link to our website there is a button thingy which should allow you to email him. PM me if you have any difficulties.

http://www.classicformulaford.com/co.../contactus.htm

Thanks for your interest
Andrew Smith.

(Ironically enough - two of our recent Class A Champions each own late 80's Reynards !!)

[pd88]

Originally Posted by diz

Hi Paul.
Are you sure it was only a second

as they say; the older you get, the faster you were , as you know the boy can steer

Formula E, those were the days; Mallory was a wet race (what a Shiite place), I remember Mike and Austin lapping me on the grass; Cadwell and Silverstone I finished 7th in each round and still got £15 per round prize money from Dedicated Micros

[FFmygale]

Personally I think it is a mistake to rule out certain makes of car, and agree with the chap who pointed out that it was Van Diemens that won most of the championships in the 80's not Reynard! A well driven, well prepared 84,85,86 VD or an 84 Reynard will be competitive against late 80's cars and, more so, an 88 or 89 VD is no slower than an 88/89 Reynard in my mind. I'm not being rude but put simply, I think it is naive to think otherwise.

I will admit that I have an 88 reynard in the garage (awaiting restoration, that I have never driven), and this is a car that was bought purely as I always liked the look of the cars and believed it was an interesting design form an engineering perspective. I never bought the car to race in pre 90 (and hence don't, within reason care whether it is the quickest pre 90 car or not), but to do the wht and FFFestival in. However, I would welcome a chance to race in a pre 90 series and see how the car and I compare to similar machinery.

Lets think a little forward here..... so assuming the pre 90 series goes ahead without 88/89 Reynards as they are 'perceived' as being quicker than the other cars...... what happens a few years down the line when an 88 VD wins the series for 2 or 3 years - will people complain and then the 88/89 VD's will be excluded also? If this logic prevails then gradually you would end up with a series for 1980 FFords!

[pd88]

[QUOTE=FFmygale;2796224]I will admit that I have an 88 reynard in the garage (awaiting restoration, that I have never driven)[QUOTE]

I think it might be my old car; is it yellow with 92 bodywork?

[diz]

Originally Posted by pd88

I think it might be my old car; is it yellow with 92 bodywork?

Now that brings up the question of Reynard 87, 88, 89, 90, 91 or 92.
Got any of those and call it whatever year you want to, depending what class you want to run it in.

[pd88]

Originally Posted by diz

Now that brings up the question of Reynard 87, 88, 89, 90, 91 or 92.
Got any of those and call it whatever year you want to, depending what class you want to run it in.

To be fair; from 88 to 92 they are all exactly the same chassis with different bodywork; which again proves a point, that they were still winning in 92 with out changing the chassis from 88; where in contrast the Van Diemen changed significantly over that period.

Must have been Reynard’s approach to making more money; as in our HFF2000 series, the SF77’s are the same as the SF79 and indeed all of the SF77 and SF78’s run SF79 or later SF81 bodywork; not sure it makes any difference to the pace of the car.

[FFmygale]

[QUOTE=pd88;2796228][QUOTE=FFmygale;2796224]I will admit that I have an 88 reynard in the garage (awaiting restoration, that I have never driven)

I think it might be my old car; is it yellow with 92 bodywork?

Thats the one!

Amazed you drove it at the WHT in what ever year it was with such a big crack in the front casting though. Part of it is literally hanging off! Just held together by the dampers by the looks of things.

[FFmygale]

Rather than work on the 'perception' that the Reynard in the 80's is some mystical all conquering chassis - lets look at the facts from the British championship...... (and I've included up until 1992 to give the complete picture of the Reynard success). I have bolded all the years in which a Reynard has won the championship.....

1980 - Tommy Byrne, Van Diemen
1981 - Ayrton Senna, Van Diemen
1982 - Mauricio Gugelmin, Van Diemen
1983 - Andrew Gilbert Scott, Van Diemen
1984 - Dave Coyne, Van Diemen
1985 - Bertrand Gachot, Van Diemen
1986 - Jason Eliott, Van Diemen
1987 - Eddie Irvine, Van Diemen
1988 - Derek Higgins, Van Diemen
1989 - Bernard Dolan, Reynard
1990 - Michael Vergers, Van Diemen
1991 - Marc Goossens, Van Diemen
1992 - Jamie Spence, Van Diemen

In my mind, it is madness that anyone has the perception that the Reynard was a better car in the 80's than the Van Diemen.

For some reason, the most competitive pre 90 class in the UK in recent years has been at Oulton, and there has been a preponderance of Reynard chassis competing in this. I don't know why this is, but would guess it has most likely been caused by a Reynard winning the championship for a few years, and then gradually people gravitate toward the belief that that is the quickest chassis to have if you want to win the championship, and now there is this wider perception that, quite simply, a Reynard is superior to other chassis of the same ilk. This is not however, as far as I can remember, a phenomenon that has been seen elsewhere in the UK. If we look at the Combe FF1600 series, which has probably been the most successful for a good number of years, there is a greater mix of Reynard and VD chassis in the pre 90 class. I don't believe that a Reynard has ever produced giant killing performances at Combe..... however an 88 VD has.... in the hands of Matt Rivett a few years back, and the VD is probably still the more popular chassis at Combe.

In short, a well prepared Reynard or VD in the hands of a capable driver will probably be just as quick as each other and I can't see how there is any justification to exclude either of them from a pre 90 championship. Yes they will probably be quicker than a 1980 car - but there is always going to be a variance across years.