Current Records - Can they go any lower?

Jim Lamb · 13 Dec 2006, 22:35 (Ref:1790159)

While thumbing through 'Uphill Racers' the other day, I started considering the steps that Hill records have taken over the years.
With the progress achieved in lowering Hill Climb records recently, what prospects for next Year(2007)?

If we take the current mark @ Shelsley 23.75 by Martin Groves, does anyone believe that can go lower still and by how much, or is there a quantum leap in the Car Technology req'd? What about the Other Hills?

One further thought, at what point will it be physically and practically Impossible to go any Lower? And will we reach that within Shelsley's Second Century?

Seasons Greetings

Regards

Jim Lamb

rescue dude · 14 Dec 2006, 08:17 (Ref:1790375)

I remember talking to Felix about this very subject earlier this year and he said that when he was marshalling at Shelsley they didn't believe it was possible to go sub 30s!!!!

The magic sub 25s took a long time.

23.75 is phenomenal.

A little bird tells me that there may be resurfacing done, so who knows?

Steve Wilkinson · 14 Dec 2006, 12:28 (Ref:1790584)

All things are possible and I would have thought it possible to break the Shelsley Record however I suspect we are now getting to the point where we are talking hundredths of a second being clipped off!

Other venues may well see their records lowered by tenths but the whole record breaking thing is slowing down. There again the weather plays a huge part in things and not just on the day. At Doune and wiscombe they need several days of dry weather for the track to be in tip-top shape and ready for records to be broken.

The question of resurfacing always gets raised and if a venue is completely resurfaced as opposed to being patched then it could possibly lead to another bout of record breaking.

I suspect we will all just have to turn up in expectation!

F1n · 14 Dec 2006, 12:37 (Ref:1790588)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Lamb

If we take the current mark @ Shelsley 23.75 by Martin Groves, does anyone believe that can go lower still and by how much, or is there a quantum leap in the Car Technology req'd? What about the Other Hills?

I am sure these records will continue to fall. Has anyone ever completed the absolute perfect run? I am sure Martin has a few hundredths left somewhere or anyone for that matter. No-one knows when we will hit the technological limit as we have always believed that we are just about at the limit right now. Who would have thought that only a few years after the first sub 25 we are now sub 24. Improving technology, weight loss (car and driver) will always catch a few hundredths. Has a car ever reached its ultimate limit before technological improvements have been made?

Someone do the maths and tell me what the average speed at shelsley would be for a sub 20? (maybe 22nd century cars?)

F1n · 14 Dec 2006, 12:40 (Ref:1790590)

[QUOTE=Steve Wilkinson] At Doune and wiscombe they need several days of dry weather for the track to be in tip-top shape and ready for records to be broken.

QUOTE]

Not always the case, Martin's Doune 36.48 was done when there had been rain overnight, i think there were some damp patches on the track somewhere (although the racing line i;m sure was Bone dry)

Paul Ranson · 14 Dec 2006, 13:45 (Ref:1790628)

The timekeepers at Shelsley record quite a lot of interesting sector time data from which one can construct fantasy runs.

So at Shelsley in August the best 'relay' run was driven by Moran/Dean/Groves/Ranson/Ranson/Moran and lasted 23.07s.

Paul

mcb666 · 14 Dec 2006, 18:36 (Ref:1790756)

So would that make 'Ranson' the fastest average sector driver to ever go up Shelsley???

McB

lifeof · 14 Dec 2006, 22:27 (Ref:1790936)

Why not Moran ?
Paul what are the sections where the split times are taken ?
On the subject of tarmac I should not think that any advice will be requested from one of the other tracks.

Paul Ranson · 15 Dec 2006, 00:01 (Ref:1791002)

The fastest 'best' time up Shelsley is Martin at 23.56.

The sectors are between Start - 64ft - Kennel - Speed Trap - Esses Split - Top Ess - Finish.

Paul

**Woolley** · 15 Dec 2006, 00:32 (Ref:1791019)

This is one we discuss often, and the simple answer is that as soon as we decide there's really no more to come is the moment someone will make us look silly. It took years to beat 26:08 at Shelsley, then a few more for the 25, after which the next whole second really hasn't taken long at all.

The split relay is fascinating, partly because of what is therefore theoretically possible, and partly because it probably isn't as a fastest run in one sector probably compromises the next. No surprise to me that the Speed Trap to Esses Split is Paul's domain or that Kennels to the Speed trap is Martin's. We have to remember that the 64ft time doesn't include Willem's rocket launches.

My feeling is that the ultimate time will be decided not by physics, but by the rule makers who will eventually decide that there is such a thing as too fast. I already shudder at the thought of what could happen with the right sort of mechanical failure at Ess Approach, Orchard, Hollow or Cedar Straight.

rescue dude · 15 Dec 2006, 08:36 (Ref:1791167)

If times get too fast i can see the MSA banning over 1600 (or over 1300?) single seaters from tracks like Shelsley on safety grounds.

This would be incredibly sad.

Steve Wilkinson · 15 Dec 2006, 09:59 (Ref:1791232)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rescue dude

If times get too fast i can see the MSA banning over 1600 (or over 1300?) single seaters from tracks like Shelsley on safety grounds.

This would be incredibly sad.

I don't think that the MSA will ban anything because of the times! The powers that be don't have that level of in depth knowledge.

HOWEVER if there were to be a BIG accident at high speed, as suggested earlier, then the MSA may well be forced to take action. It would probably take the form of an initial blanket ban for ALL hillclimb venues of the Over 2000cc Racing and Sports Libre cars (I am aware that some venues are currently banned from running racing cars of over 1600cc).

Then the dilemma occurs as to whether or not the venues can be made safe enough to once again run cars over 2000cc. I suspect the costs for most venues would be prohibitive and therefore the championship would have to adopt the two litre limit.

In the meantime I would suggest that this specific subject be closed as I have found that there are many mischievous posters who will attempt to highjack a thread for their own minority view.

F1n · 15 Dec 2006, 11:08 (Ref:1791283)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I suspect the costs for most venues would be prohibitive and therefore the championship would have to adopt the two litre limit.

In the meantime I would suggest that this specific subject be closed as I have found that there are many mischievous posters who will attempt to highjack a thread for their own minority view.

i know this is still off topic but i couldnt find the correct one, but anyway the 2ltr limits enforced in European hillclimbs do they ban the use of turbo and superchargers as well?

rescue dude · 15 Dec 2006, 12:31 (Ref:1791369)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

In the meantime I would suggest that this specific subject be closed as I have found that there are many mischievous posters who will attempt to highjack a thread for their own minority view.

Do you mean me Steven?

rescue dude · 15 Dec 2006, 12:35 (Ref:1791372)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

HOWEVER if there were to be a BIG accident at high speed, as suggested earlier, then the MSA may well be forced to take action.

Actually Steve i didn't want to consider the BIG accident idea as it'd be me and my crew picking up the pieces. I think it was inferred in my post.

Back on subject can you work out the average speed of a twenty second run?

wi11iamm · 15 Dec 2006, 13:40 (Ref:1791425)

I calculate it at around 102mph

Paul Ranson · 15 Dec 2006, 14:18 (Ref:1791451)

Shelsley is reputedly 1000 yards long. So in general the average speed for a time 't' in seconds is (1000*3600)/(1760*t). Or 2045/t.

So 102mph for a 20s run and 86 for 23.75. Only 87 for a 23.5 though...

Paul

Moose Baiter · 15 Dec 2006, 14:23 (Ref:1791456)

I think most of the records are vunerable given the right conditions. The one that will go by the biggest margin on a fully dry weekend is Doune (possibly half a second). The one that probably won't go is Wiscombe.

Steve Wilkinson · 15 Dec 2006, 16:04 (Ref:1791510)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rescue dude

Do you mean me Steven?

No.

Oh and it's STEPHEN when using my full christian name if you please!

Flymo · 15 Dec 2006, 18:50 (Ref:1791642)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1n

i know this is still off topic but i couldnt find the correct one, but anyway the 2ltr limits enforced in European hillclimbs do they ban the use of turbo and superchargers as well?

in europe you can run a F3000 car and sports cars upto 3litre. And there are a few turbo/supercharged car as well

hillsprint77 · 15 Dec 2006, 21:31 (Ref:1791745)

The beauty of hillclimb regulations, is that the Libre Classes are literally that. As long as it complies to very basic requirements, it's a goer !!

As such there will always be innovation and evolution, which will result in quicker times.

As to Steve's "Big Bang" theory, my experience is that this would probably be looked upon as a venue specific issue, and local solutions would be sought.

We've had big V8s, then back to full race 4 pots, back to ex F1 V8s, a V10, sticky tyres, radial tyres, alu tubs, carbon tubs etc. Who knows what is being cooked up in some garage this winter, next winter or whenever.

That's the beauty and that's why we turn up to watch, compete, take photos, marshal or whatever

**Woolley** · 16 Dec 2006, 01:35 (Ref:1791885)

Got to agree there. I love the 'anything goes' approach. The sheer variety of cars makes the day interesting.

Logic suggests that there has to be a minimum possible - you're not going to get a 1 sec climb, for instance, but then again the current times seemed a pipe dream only a few years ago, and the record runs show no sign of running out of steam. Not just the big class, either - I'm constantly amazed at the exploits of such as Robert Kenrick and Ash Mason knocking lumps off class records in cars that would seem to have run out of development potential 20 years ago.

blackx · 16 Dec 2006, 05:10 (Ref:1791925)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I don't think that the MSA will ban anything because of the times! The powers that be don't have that level of in depth knowledge.

Dont bet on it

Pike · 16 Dec 2006, 17:07 (Ref:1792200)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackx

Dont bet on it

The FIA do it in F1 all the time and they seem not to know anything about it - cars get too quick, the regs change.

rescue dude · 16 Dec 2006, 20:50 (Ref:1792313)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike

The FIA do it in F1 all the time and they seem not to know anything about it - cars get too quick, the regs change.

Don't you mean they get exciting to watch the regs change.

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