Last race for Cosworth?

[csirl]

Am I correct that, with Marussia opting for Ferrari power, no teams will be using Cosworth engines in 2014?

So, is Sunday's race the last time we'll ever see a Cosworth in F1.

Considering the contribution Cosworth has made to the sport for decades, I'm surprised that this isnt getting move coverage.

[BSchneiderFan]

It is a sad day but one that's been coming for a while. Cosworth were never really able to be competitive in this iteration of the engine regulations. It would be great to see them develop a new turbo plant but maybe they just don't have the resources.

[Marbot]

Yep! It's the last race for 'Cossie' this weekend. Will they be back? Only if they receive offers that make it a financially viable proposition, from a car manufacturer for example. Cosworth aren't going to build anything unless someone else is paying for it.

[beau1]

They will be back eventually I'm sure as the engine suppliers in F1 are constantly changing especially in the back 4 or 5 teams.

Haven't they been and gone a few times already? I thought they didn't supply anyone from 2007-2010?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by beau1

Haven't they been and gone a few times already? I thought they didn't supply anyone from 2007-2010?

That is correct. I'm sure Cosworth will be back in some capacity in the future as and when new finance arrives.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The end of an era.

[thetool]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The end of an era.

It's not.. they've already been out for 3 years between 2007 and 2009.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by thetool

It's not.. they've already been out for 3 years between 2007 and 2009.

That was a hiatus.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by beau1

They will be back eventually I'm sure as the engine suppliers in F1 are constantly changing especially in the back 4 or 5 teams.

Haven't they been and gone a few times already? I thought they didn't supply anyone from 2007-2010?

Between 2007 and 2009 the engine architecture did not change much, plus there was an engine development freeze in effect. For its 2010 return, Cosworth simply brushed off their old V8 Cosworth, added small changes and shipped it off to four customer teams.

This time it's different. The 2014 engine architecture changed a lot. All manufacturers started work on the turbo engines years in advance and its is very expensive. Cosworth needs something like two solid customers, or more realistically like three of them, to be able to restart its work on the turbo engine. I don't think it's going to happen. Honda and others will fill for the void created as Cosworth departs. The only way Cosworth could make it is by teaming up with a major manufacturer that wants to get into F1 engine business.

[JacobP]

Since 1994, the Cosworth engines haven't done much to impress besides a couple of wins in unusual circumstances. I wouldn't blame Cosworth for this. Their Ford overlords were pretty inept IMO.

It's kind of sad to see Cosworth fading slowly away the way it did. Cosworth's decline did not start just a few years ago. It was going on for decades. Cosworth DFW was the dominant engine in the 60s and 70s, and by the time 80s arrived, it was probably credited with more wins and championships than Ferrari. The first sign of trouble was that Cosworth was late to the turbo frenzy of the 80s, bringing its first turbo engine only in 1986. The naturally aspirated Cosworth engines of the 90s were capable of winning races and even championships when paired with a great driver and chassis. However, the fact that McLaren and Benetton both dropped the Ford engines in 1994 and 1995 respectively shows that even these top teams did not believe that this is the best engine. Or perhaps the engine was decent, but Ford hasn't done anything to entice these top teams of that time to continue using Cosworth's engines.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Since 1994, the Cosworth engines haven't done much to impress besides a couple of wins in unusual circumstances. I wouldn't blame Cosworth for this. Their Ford overlords were pretty inept IMO.

It's kind of sad to see Cosworth fading slowly away the way it did. Cosworth's decline did not start just a few years ago. It was going on for decades. Cosworth DFW was the dominant engine in the 60s and 70s, and by the time 80s arrived, it was probably credited with more wins and championships than Ferrari. The first sign of trouble was that Cosworth was late to the turbo frenzy of the 80s, bringing its first turbo engine only in 1986. The naturally aspirated Cosworth engines of the 90s were capable of winning races and even championships when paired with a great driver and chassis. However, the fact that McLaren and Benetton both dropped the Ford engines in 1994 and 1995 respectively shows that even these top teams did not believe that this is the best engine. Or perhaps the engine was decent, but Ford hasn't done anything to entice these top teams of that time to continue using Cosworth's engines.

The original engine of 1967 was the Cosworth DFV (Direct Four Valves) built exclusively for Lotus with the sponsorship of Ford authorized by Walter Hayes.

Chapman realized that the new engine would kill F1 and agreed that Hayes/ Ford/ Cosworth could supply the other teams with the engine in the interests of his own business and F1.

They ran it, or very close to it as a DFX turbo in America.

Cannot remember what the 3.5 liter version was called ...

It is just sad to see them go, probably forced out by the manufacturers colluding to make sure that the independent left. Offer good deals to the better teams and force Cosworth to struggle, also probably due to the horrendously expensive KERS development, and then forcing the teams to run the junk! Deliberate strategy? You be the judge!

I don't think they currently have any direct relationship with Ford, but I could well be wrong here!

[JacobP]

With no manufacturer support behind Cosworth, this was going to be a predictable end. I believe there was indeed some kind of gentlemen's agreement that no car manufacturers will supply engines to at least two teams, presumably Marussia and HRT. Cosworth regretted the loss of Williams and Caterham in 2012, but continued to work on the 2014 1.6L engine for the sake of the remaining Cosworth powered teams. However, once HRT went out of business, Cosworth just threw in the towel since Marrusia's contract alone was not sufficient to fund the new engine development. Parting with Cosworth engines was a bit of a knee jerk reaction from Caterham. Even with Renault engine, they're only barely faster than Marussia-Cosworth, sometimes.

[wnut]

Yes Jacob, I'd love to see a full technical comparison of the Cosworth against the Renault by the Caterham engineers without the budget blind fold on!

Perhaps one of the drivers will write about it some day!

[JacobP]

I have read some time in 2011 that teams were not impressed with the Cosworth engines back then. Supposedly, Cosworth V8 suffered from significant power loss after the first race, poor reliability, and high fuel consumption.

http://grandprix247.com/2012/02/22/r...h-says-bottas/

http://porsche.wikidot.com/forum/t-1...as-two-hurdles

Williams wasn't doing bad though in 2010 with the Cosworth engine, scoring points regularly and finishing 6ths overall. I bet they would love to return at least to that form.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I have read some time in 2011 that teams were not impressed with the Cosworth engines back then. Supposedly, Cosworth V8 suffered from significant power loss after the first race, poor reliability, and high fuel consumption.

http://grandprix247.com/2012/02/22/r...h-says-bottas/

http://porsche.wikidot.com/forum/t-1...as-two-hurdles

Williams wasn't doing bad though in 2010 with the Cosworth engine, scoring points regularly and finishing 6ths overall. I bet they would love to return at least to that form.

Ta thanks, hadn't seen that before!

Bang goes another theory!

[NaBUru38]

Ford-Cosworth should return to IndyCar.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Ford-Cosworth should return to IndyCar.

I was wondering about that. Honda would like to see a third engine manufacturer. It just depends on whether Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven want to get involved in that side of motorsport. KV Racing Technology, now KVSH, wich is part owned by Kevin Kalkhoven has undergone some restructuring, so it's going to be down to affordability.

[Paceracing]

The Cosworth CA series of F1 engines did cut the mustard but unfortunately, they never got the chance to shine as they were always relegated to the customer teams which lag massively behind the big manufacturers. It has been said many times in that it would be really interesting to see how the Cosworth CA engines performed in the back of a really good chassis. The CA engine was amongst the most powerful on the grid, but other engines have other advantages too, (i.e. Renault which produces less power but can run much hotter and so uses smaller side pods).

[Marbot]

Cossie CA V8 was the first engine to hit 20,000 rpm on track.

"The first Formula One engine to attain 20,000 rpm on track was the Cosworth CA of 2006, and it is generally agreed that no rival surpassed it as the benchmark before rev limiting was cruelly imposed."

http://www.f1technical.net/features/18858

I think that it was also the first engine to complete a half race distance at 20,000 rpm (Monza 2006).

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yes Jacob, I'd love to see a full technical comparison of the Cosworth against the Renault by the Caterham engineers without the budget blind fold on!

Perhaps one of the drivers will write about it some day!

The Caterham move from Cossie to Renault was not about the engine alone.

The move to Renault allowed Caterham to buy a competitive gearbox/engine management package from an other F1 team.
that saved Caterham the trouble to develop their own gear box
which saved money and freed up engineering resources
very important for a small team

winning 4 titles, the Renault cant be bad, and my guess is that it is better than the Cossie that saw almost no development

+ if You buy a Renault You might get access to sophistaced engine mapping related to exhaust actived underfloor aero

even if Renault does not purposely filter down knowledge gained with Red Bull to the other Team, they wont unlearn what they hear and there might some involuntary cross fertilisation

aaand: pls remember: Cosworth racing engines is now privately owned, no Connection with Ford anymore, the build engines strictly for Profit and even then only when somebody pays for development

whereas Renault and Mercedes will fund the development of their engine as they want to win, cost there is a secondary criterium

my gues is: in the last few years you only raced the Cossie when You had to, not by choice

Rudolf

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

The Caterham move from Cossie to Renault was not about the engine alone.

The move to Renault allowed Caterham to buy a competitive gearbox/engine management package from an other F1 team.
that saved Caterham the trouble to develop their own gear box
which saved money and freed up engineering resources
very important for a small team

winning 4 titles, the Renault cant be bad, and my guess is that it is better than the Cossie that saw almost no development

+ if You buy a Renault You might get access to sophistaced engine mapping related to exhaust actived underfloor aero

even if Renault does not purposely filter down knowledge gained with Red Bull to the other Team, they wont unlearn what they hear and there might some involuntary cross fertilisation

aaand: pls remember: Cosworth racing engines is now privately owned, no Connection with Ford anymore, the build engines strictly for Profit and even then only when somebody pays for development

whereas Renault and Mercedes will fund the development of their engine as they want to win, cost there is a secondary criterium

my gues is: in the last few years you only raced the Cossie when You had to, not by choice

Rudolf

Very good points Rudolf !

Particularly

"aaand: pls remember: Cosworth racing engines is now privately owned, no Connection with Ford anymore, the build engines strictly for Profit and even then only when somebody pays for development

whereas Renault and Mercedes will fund the development of their engine as they want to win, cost there is a secondary criterium"

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I have read some time in 2011 that teams were not impressed with the Cosworth engines back then. Supposedly, Cosworth V8 suffered from significant power loss after the first race, poor reliability, and high fuel consumption.

http://grandprix247.com/2012/02/22/r...h-says-bottas/

http://porsche.wikidot.com/forum/t-1...as-two-hurdles

Williams wasn't doing bad though in 2010 with the Cosworth engine, scoring points regularly and finishing 6ths overall. I bet they would love to return at least to that form.

My understanding was that it was significantly heavier than the competition as well.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

My understanding was that it was significantly heavier than the competition as well.

How come, the 2.4-litre V8 was basically a spec engine?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

How come, the 2.4-litre V8 was basically a spec engine?

I'm really not sure but it is something I heard repeated during practice and qually broadcast through the year.